Ram Suri previous reply: For example, Lord Krishna (11/54) says that after exclusive devotion to divine, one can enter in him (pravestum), meaning that merging of soul in divine. Can you please reply to me sir?
Swami Ram Swarup: In this shloka, it is said that Shri Krishna can be seen, known and can be attained by continuous worship with entire devotion. As regard,” PRAVESHTUM ” Yajurveda mantra 40/6 says that God is within all and all creation is in God. So question of entering the soul into God does not arise. The creation tells the fact that God is within all and all creation is within God.

Ram Suri present reply: Sir! What is the meaning of the word ‘attained’ in your answer? Lord Krishna also says in Gita 9/4 that every thing is present in him. We agree to it. Right? Then Lord Krishna also says that during the daytime of Lord Brahma (Here, we are not debating who this Lord Brahma is? To get answer for this question, please see my following answersalso), creation is done from prakruti, and during his nighttime, whole universe is dissolved in prakruti (please vide Gita 8/18,19 slokas). Now as per 9/4, every thing is already present in divine. Right? If it so, then how come creation and dissolution are taking place inside divine, when divine does not have any particular form? It does not make any meaning? Right? Therefore, the Gita sloka 9/4 or Yajurveda mantra 40/6 when they say that every thing is in divine, theyshould be understood that divine is present everywhere equally, and that there is no place that does not have divine presence. More over, as per your understanding both divine and souls are different and remain different forever absolutely, and even the liberated souls cannot merge in divine. Right? If this being your case, then, how come the above Yujurveda mantra and Gita sloka say that every thing is present in divine, which means they are already in merged state.Is it not some thing different from your opinion? Both Yajurveda mantra and Gita sloka 9/4 say that every thing is present in divine, but on the other hand you say that divine and souls are different permanent and cannot merge in each other. It means that your understanding is clashing with the above Yajurveda mantra also.
Swami Ram Swarup: It is all-okay and I appreciate your views please. Please accept my namaste. This spiritual discussion gives peace to so many concerned aspirants. Now I start mentioning my views. In discussions it is not necessary that one should acccept the views but it is sure that discussion and views must be free of tension etc., and love must be always in every one’s hearts for all. Secondly, your answers have never hurt me, it is a truth. I have been wondering in our India and abroad and have tried to promote international brotherhood and for this achievement one has to listen and bear all opposites’ views happily despite of the fact that the views are hurting nature or not. On Geeta shlok 11/54 my views are as under—
There are three facts to reach the God.
1. Knowledge (Gyan) i.e., to know about alive-non-alive, truth-untruth, Braham-illusion etc., by real sadhna.
2. To see (darshan) —– After knowing, an aspirant can see the motto only.
3. To enter (pravesh) —- After seeing the truth, the aspirant leaves behind the all untrue paths- untruth and adopt truth only I.e., he enters in truth.

Enter means ” to follow ” and not to enter the room etc. If a soul will enter the God, then it means, the God is standing in one space where the soul is not and the soul is standing in another place but Tateriopnishad says,” TAT SRISHTVA TADEVA NU PRAVISHAT ” I.E., God created the universe from prakriti and incorporated Himself in it. So God is separate and universe is separate. In this shlok, a word,” TATVEN ” is also mentioned which means to know the factual position- truth. In Valmiki Ramayan, Bal kand sarg one it is mentioned about Shri Ram that he was SARV SHASTRATH TATVAJYAHAN and VED VEDANG TATVAJYAHA i.e., knower of all shastras by truth and knower of all Vedas by truth. TATVA means factual position. So in this shlok of Bhagwat Geeta, the meaning of TATVEN PRAVESHTU is ” to enter by knowing factual truth “. So the meaning of TATVEN PRAVESHTU is not that the soul has merged into God and has become God. The meaning of ” atained “, you asked, is to achieve, please.Actually in advaitvad the merger philosophy is based on, only knowledge (Gyan) and not karma. So according to advaitvad, the meaning of ” TATVEN PRAVESHTUM ” is merger of soul into God. Whereas Vedas tell to adopt Gyan (knowledge in Rigveda), karma ( deeds vide Yajurveda) and Upsana (worship vide Saamveda ). So according to the said philosophy of Vedas, the meaning of next shlok i.e.,” MATKARMAKRIT, MATPARMAHA ” etc., says that the soul with his body should perform duties. Suppose, vide shlok 11/54, the soul is merged then the meaning of the next shlok is of no use. Therefore in my opinion, the meaning of “TATVEN PRAVESHTUM ” is to enter into knowledge by doing pious deeds. This point may please be discussed further.

Bhagwat Geeta shlok 9/4 says that God is formless and He is within all being “omnipresent”. All five matters and souls are situated within God but God does not i.e., after creating the world, the God incorporated Himself in it and thus given strength to earth, sun, moon and whole universe to be stable or to live upon etc. So this is the meaning of ” MATASTHANISARVABHUTANI “. On the other hand, God being Almighty needs no any help for His stability. So this is the meaning of “AHAM TESHU NA AVASTHITAHA” Almighty God is formless but the wprld is not formless. The world and bodies have forms. Even Shatpath Brahmin Granth says, “YASYA ATMA SHARIRAM ” i.e., the soul is the residence of Almighty God (Anandmaya kosh). So naturally, God is smallest (suksham) than world and souls and therefore has incorporated Himself within universe and souls, whereas universe and souls can not, just like the electric flow in electric wire. Wire is sthool and electricity is most suksham than the wire.

Bhagwta Geeta shlok 9/4 is also not saying that everything is already present in divine. Above quoted Tateriopnishad also clarifies that God incorporated Himself in universe after creating the universe from prakriti and this is very well clear in mandal 10, sukta 129-130 of Rigveda that after pralaya and at the beginning of creation, three tatvas were present having different qualities, i.e., God, Prakriti and souls; all immortal and eternal. So Yajurveda mantra 40/6 and Geeta shlok 9/4 never say that at the time of creation everything is already present in Divine (God). Actually after creation the Divine (God) incorporates Himself in the universe. You have told that creation is done from prakriti and is dissolved in prakriti and this fact is mentioned in all Vedas and Samkhya sutra 1/26 onwards that God creates universe from prakriti and prakriti made universe, at the time of destruction, pralaya, the universe is dissloved or takes the shape again as prakriti. It isnever said in any veda that prakriti has been merged in to God, please. Now please send your views.

The meaning of Yajurveda mantra 40/6 comes that the learned, who after studying Vedas and practising Ashtang yoga philosophy sees all non-alive and alive universe within God. And knows that God is everywhere, within whole universe, then he gets nomisunderstanding about prakriti made universe, alive souls and Almighty God. So here main thing is word “ANUPASHYATI”. Anu means after studying Vedas and practising ashtang yoga i.e., he who sees is soul. The another is prakriti made non-alive universe, seen bu soul and third is Almighty God. And in this Yajurveda mantra, there is no mention that the soul ora person is God. Now, please send your views.

Swami Ram Swarup: In this connection, Ramanujam says on this shloka that he who does continuos worship of mind, with whole heart/entire devotion, he attains me.

Ram Suri present reply: Sir! How come you quote sri Ramanujam’s references in support of your views here when you do not believe in his Vishitadvaita philosophy? More over, as you may be aware that he believed Lord Vistnu as supreme divine (divine in saguna form) while you believe divine in nirgun form. As per your understanding divine does not have anysankalp or vikalp, and thus should always be a nirgun form. Right? When this is the case, how come you quote hisreferences? But I have no objection for your sri Ramanuja reference here. For Gita 11/54 sloka, sri Ramanuja said that by whole-hearted devotion, the sadhaka knows truly Lord Krishna (or divine), sees him (or experiences divine) and enters into Lord Krishna (or divine). Can you please tell me who is entering and where is entering into if everything is alreadypresent in divine as per your understanding of Yujurveda mantra, and if both divine and soul cannot merge in each other as per your understanding of scriptures?
Swami Ram Swarup: As regards Shri Ramanujam or any other dignity, who have done a lot and made their conclusion tallying with the Vedas, they are respectfully honoured, please. So in the sentence used by Shri Ramanujam quoted before, the meaning of “me” therein is “formless God”, please. “Nirguna” word is used, is not so appropriate as “Nirakaar”. However, the shape of the world, in which God is present, may be considered the form of God and God has unlimited qualities like omnipresent, Almighty, creator, gives result of karmas, alive, pure, formless etc., etc. So God can be considered on this basis ” Saguna ” but will always remain Nirakaar.

Swami Ram Swarup: In this connection, please refer Shatpath Brahmin Granth of Yaskacharya, quoted above, wherein it is stated the deepest and unseen meaning by Yaskacharya that in salvation, the soul has sankalp power and uses ear, nose, body etc., accordingly for merriment. Therefore without ear, nose, mind, budhhi etc., soul can do nothing which is fundamental of Vedas. And opened by ancient and present Rishis, as issaid in Rigveda mantra 1/1/2 and this secret can’t be known by arrogants please. Therefore please study Rishi-made holy books.

Ram Suri present reply: I agreed earlier also that soul has subtle body only up to certain point. In this regard, whatever Shatpath Brahmin Granth says is also true, but it is true only up to a certain point. Basically, your understanding, based on the above Granth, is only applicable to those souls, which follow devayani marg or archiradhi marg (which is also described by Lord Krishna in Gita. Please vide 8/24 sloka in Gita, also please see Brahma Sutras from IV.3.1 onwards for this topic; also please see Chandogya Upanishad 4.15.5 and 5.10.1 about this path). The soul will pass through Agni, jyoti, day,etc deities (I am skipping out many details here) and finally reaches a god by the help of a non-human person (Who is this non-human person? Please see Brihadaranyaka Upanishad [Bri. Upanishad] 6.2.15, and also see ‘tatpurusho maanasa aitya’in this sloka). We may call this person, who guides the soul to this God, as amanava purusha as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 (please see the term ‘tat purusho amanava’ .). It is commonly believed that this god, to whom the soul was brought, is Lord Brahma. Therefore, as per the above Bri. Upanishad reference, the soul finally reaches a god with the help of amanava purusha. I am deliberately stopped my answer to writer further in order to know your understanding on this topic. Therefore, you are most welcome to send your comments up to this point only. Please state clearly if you agree to my above points, which are supported with Upanishads, Brahma Sutras and Gita. We will proceed further slowly when our current discussion gets clearunderstanding. NamaskarRam Suri
Swami Ram Swarup: As regards the views of Shri Ramanujam ji, he is using word “Him” which means Almighty God. Almighty God as said in Yajurveda mantra, 40/6,7, is resalised by a Yogi. This is applicable to Yogeshwar Shri Krishna, Vyas Muni, Atri Rishi and several Rishis-Munis. So the Almighty God manifested/appeared within the body of Yogeshwar Shri Krishna and at that time Shri Krishna was equivalent to God. So the words mentioned in the Geeta like “Matkarmakrit, Mat parmaha, Mad bhaktaha, Mam sharnam ” etc.,etc. are as said in yajurveda mantra 31/11 i.e., ” BRAHMANO MUKHAM AASEET ” i.e., in this world, the mouth of a Yogeshwar is like a mouth of God from where the preach of Vedas, comes out (but God has no mouth). Now, please send your views and as regards who is “entering” and where is entering, I have clarified above by saying ” incorporated Himself ” etc., please.

As regards Shatpath Brahmin Granth, Shukla paksh means to met the death while doing pious deeds according to Vedas and Krishna paksh means the death while doing sins etc.

The conclusion of Braham sutra 4/3/1 is that he who worships Brahma goes to brahamlok through archi. Archi means Rashmi- kiran. In Chandogya Upnishad 5/10/1,2, there has been mentioned other paths also from archi to Agni, day, jyoti etc. And asregards Manav and amanav, the sadhak (manav) himself becomes a manav and teaches the aspirants and this philosophy is said ” Devyanmarg “.Archi means a stage of the soul like a pure ray.” Aha” (day) means the stage likea pure, bright day and so on. So these are the stages of souls and death on a proper day etc. Geeta shlok 8/27 is based on imagination only, otherwise the salvation is attained while alive. Secondly, there are no two types of salvation because salvation (moksh) means lack of body and sorrows etc. Yogeshwar whlie in body ( alive) is also in salvation but will feel heat, cold etc., through body but soulhas got Samadhi, but after death he will not feel anything else due to lack of body because from body, the sorrows, seasons, happiness, sadness etc., are felt. If it is not then, half salvation with subtle body etc., is not mentioned in Shatpath Brahmin kand 14, already stated or in any Ved mantra.

Ram Suri: Namaskar. I have given answers for your email reply. Ihave no angry or anything. If my answers hurt you,please forgive me.
Swami Ram Swarup: Namaskar. I am pleased to listen your views and it is okay. Because this is a matter of faith i.e., spiritualism and nobody must try to shoulder his views to anybody else. But happily, pleasantly and faithfully everybody must free to speak his views. Ours is a secular country and we respect all religions heartily. In the beginning when you sent your questions, first I thought not to give answer. But the way of your questioning was soft like a learned saint, then only I managed myself to brief my views based on four Vedas, but not with the sense that you must accept. However I sure wanted to give the preach of four Vedas only, but in between you started rude and discourteous language, so I requested you to please stop the same because it is a religious matter whose base is love only. Now it’s okay.

Swamiji’s previous reply: “Yog shastra says that Raj, tam and satv gunas of Prakriti do not make effect on Jeevan mukta, but he uses mouth, ear etc., and food etc., made of Prakriti as used by all ancient Rishis and prakriti remains always and can’t be told nothing as mentioned in Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 and Samkhya shastra sutra 1/26”.

Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I agree that trigunas cannot tempt a jeevan mukta. He also eats food and does other work. But all his senses are under his control, and thus I have said that trigunas, which are prakrutic, cannot do anything to him, and thus for him they are not existing. Therefore, for him there is no tretvad (divine, soul and prakruti= tretvad. But for him prakruti=zero, and hence no three but only two, and thus no tretvad for jeevan mukta).
Swami Ram Swarup: For the jeevan mukta still prakriti is there in sankalp and cannot be zero please. But prakriti’s gunas i.e., materialistic articles and raj, tam, and satv gunas will never make any effect on jeevan mukta. Zero means there is no prakriti. But prakriti made whole world is still but will not effect on jeevan mukta. But will effect others. A jeevan mukta even after leaving this body will use mouth, ears etc., as I already told giving reference of Shatpath Brahmin Granth kand 14 wherein it is mentioned by Yask Muni that a jeevan mukta after leaving the body will not have panch bhautik sharir And indriyan but has his satya (true )sankalp (desire etc) and natural qualities by which when the soul wants to listen then by his natural quality and desire soul gets ears and so on. So these organs are considered suksham sharir which can be defined that the jeevan mukta at that time has body based on sankalp and desire i.e., when jeevan mukta and any body else is alive having panch bhautik body and jeevatma lives in the body, at that time jeevatama (whether jeevan mukta or others i.e., both) uses the organs, perceptions and body for carrying out deeds. Similarly jeevan mukta only based on his sankalp and own power uses the body after leaving the panch bhautik body too. So it is not possible based on the principles of Vedas that during salvation the soul will be merged in to God. Maindiscussion is on this issue only and we must carefully discuss on this matter. When I say,”already explained above” it means I have already told with reference to Vedanta sutras also that merger is not possible. So if you will please again tell me that the soul will be merged giving any references then my reply will be ,”I have already explained above.” Because with giving the references of Vedas, shashtras I have already explained that merger is not possible. But if it suits you, you may please worship accordingly and I will be loving you also. Because you have adopted a Vedanta mat which I cannot object and I have adopted a Vedic mat which you must not please object. But still our discussion must be on to know about each mat.

Ram Suri’s previous reply: “In other words, a jeevan mukta sees divine everywhere with his gyan eye, where as ignorant people tries to see divine through theirmortal eyes”.
Swamiji’s previous reply: “How ignorant will try to see God by mortal eyes when it is not possible except to see statue etc. Based on Atharvaveda mantra 10/8/14, it is too said that God is realised by divine eyes and not by any indri like eyes made of prakriti. So based on this mantra, Shri Krishna too says that O Arjun you cannot see me with your mortal eyes. Vedas are eternal and Geeta has been written about 5,300 years back. So the knowledge in Geeta is based on four Vedas.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! When I said that an ignorant person tries to see divine by mortal eyes, it should be understood that he is only worshipping with some expectation from divine. On the other hand, a jeevan mukta does not expect anything from divine.
Swami Ram Swarup: My Vedic views are these that jeevan mukta or not jeevan mukta both have always expectations from God. That is why the method of prayers to get knowledge, assets, pleasure etc., is there in the Vedas and in every religion. As I have explained above now also the jeevan mukta enjoys the merriment by the blessing of God. As regards materialistic eyes, we can’t forget the principles of Vedas, shastras, etc., that from these materialistic eyes if someone has some expectation from God i.e., all in vain. So if we stop from beginning as told in Yajurveda mantra 40/4 , these materialistic eyes then I think it will be a good path. Because this mantra says,” ENAT DEVAH NA APNUVAN” i.e., eye, ear etc., indriyan are not capable to reach or achieve the God. But if somebody tries from indriyan so he can try.

Ram Suri: Instead of understanding this, you started looking at the literal meaning in my sentences. This is called understanding of literal meaning of sentences. Apart from this, a very subtle truth is associated scriptural statements. When you confine to literal meaning of the sentences or words in the answers, then you will miss the hidden spiritual meaning. This is what is happening in your case all the time sir.
Swami Ram Swarup: So please you can carry on from eyes etc., also. But whatever I know even literal meaning as tell about me, I am satisfied with my literal meaning, even if I hide spiritual meaning. I do not negate your views passed on me please.

Swamiji’s previous answer: “No please being against the Vedas. What is gyan eye when jeevan mukt has left his body here and fails to see divine every where”
Ram Suri previous answer: “Sir, the problem with you is that you do not understand the meaning and the context. Here, a jeevan mukta is also a human being. But because, he has done intense spiritual sadhana, he has experienced the divine within himself. With the divine experience, his perception of looking at things changes, and he experiences divine presence everywhere. On the contrary, even though he is a jeevan mukta, but because, he has a physical body, he will also feel hunger etc. But, unlike people like us, his urges are not instinct. So, what happens to his soul after the death of his physical body? It willmerge in divine immediately. This is called Sadyomukti (Immediately salvation). This is where the Brahma Sutra IV.2.15 (Tani pare tatha hyaha) is applied. Please also see, Prasna Upanishad 6.5. The meaning of this is that all 16 parts of witness, having their aim in Him (divine) are solubilised on attaining Him (divine). River and sea analogy is given in this connection in this reference. Now, what is there sir, here, to say that it is against Vedas?”
Swamiji’s previous answer: “Already explained above please”
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! You are simply escaping from answering now. You said, “Already explained above please” Let us see what you had explained above. The following is your answer, which was referred to see:
Swami Ram Swarup: “Yog shastra says that Raj, tam and satv gunas of Prakriti do not make effect on Jeevan mukta, but he uses mouth, ear etc., and food etc., made of Prakriti as used by all ancient Rishis and prakriti remains always and can’t be told nothing as mentioned in Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 and Samkhya shastra sutra 1/26”.

Ram Suri: In my previous answer, when I said ‘gyan eye’ you have said that ‘What is gyan eye when jeevan mukt has left his body here and fails to see divine every where’. Perhaps you are under impression that a gyan eye is a material object. But it is not a material thing to leave it behind on earth upon death of physical body. On the other hand, this is that gyan eye, which is also referred by Lord Krishna in Gita 13/35, where he says that those who sees the difference between physical body and the knower of this body with gyan chaksusa (eye of knowledge) will attain salvation. Now, please do not say that the exact word ‘salvation’ is not found in this sloka. Please understand the context. Instead of understanding my answer in this way, you simply said, ‘Already explained above please’. This is no good sir.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have several times explained that merger is not possible of a jeevan mukta because he has also to come again in birth vide Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2 and these mantras I have explained before. So your repetition is not understood to me please. Please study these mantras carefully if possible. Moksh and again birth is eternal as said in these Rigveda mantras. So merger is not possible. Gyan eye means to know about truth, untruth, jad-chetan, good-bad, so for this purpose eyes are not required, so the gyan eye means the soul who has attained whole knowledge by studying or tapsya through mann and pure budhhi. And in salvation i.e., after leaving the body the jeevan mukta again uses mind, etc., to get merriment of salvation through eye, nose etc. So this the gyan eye. You can say the sankalp power of jeevan mukta makes enable the jeevanmukta to enjoy the time of merriment of salvation. If still not understood then you may again pass any comments on me and I will try again please. I do not consider gyan eye a materialistic instrument because it is not used by jeevan mukta during salvation. Gyanitself is chakshu please.

Swamiji;s previous reply: “Physical body is not prakriti but made of prakriti’s three gunas (please see Samkhya shastra sutra 1/26)”
Ram Suri present reply: There are three things. One is divine, second is soul and the third one is prakruti. Right? Divine is not prakruti. Sir! Do you agree on this?
Swami Ram Swarup: I have several times told this fact giving reference even of Rigveda mandal 10 that this is the tretvad which you are telling here that God, souls, and prakriti are eternal. And from prakriti’s three gunas God creates universe etc., etc. So this is all repetition please. That is why I have to tell,” I have already explained above.”

Ram Suri: Then, souls are also not prakruti. Right? Live physical body has two things. One is soul and the other is a physical body associated with senses.
Swami Ram Swarup: In other words the body is made of prakriti’s three gunas. The body is non-alive because prakriti’s three gunas are non-alive. The body has fiveperceptions, five senses, mann, budhhi, ahankar etc., as per Rigveda mandal 10 and Geeta 13/5 also. Soul is however, alive and live in the body.

Ram Suri: When the soul is not prakruti, then it means that the physical body is called prakruti, (associated with senses).
Swami Ram Swarup: Prakriti’s definition is mentioned in Rigveda mandal 10 and Samkhya sutra 1/26 that when three gunas are “SAMYA” that is not working then this stage is called prakriti. When three gunas are in action and have created universe then this stage is not called prakriti but is called prakriti’s gunas made universe. This I had already explained before and this is only repetition please. So sun is the result of prakriti and Prakriti is its cause. The parents are cause of a daughter or a son and daughter or son are result. So the daughter or son are not parents.

Ram Suri: On the other hand, you say that physical bodies are made from prakruti, and that they are not called prakruti anymore. It means, as per your understanding, once the physical bodies are created or made, then they are no more called prakruti. Right? You know that the live physical body is not soul, and similarly, a live physical body is also not called divine. Right? If the physical body is neither a soul nor a divine, then what is it remaining now? Only prakruti is remaining.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have explained above please that body is prakriti made. There are two things in Vedas and shastras—Karann (cause) and Karya (result). Prakriti is the cause of universe, i.e., from prakriti’s three gunas the universe is created and during destruction this creation is merged in prakriti. Then prakriti remains prakriti(cause) and karya (result) is destroyed during final destruction (Pralaya). This is repetition please. Please don’t mind if it will be repeated then I will have to write, “already explained above.”

Ram Suri: It means that physical bodies are called prakruti, nevertheless, prakruti is in a modified form now. Can we say that a pot, once made from mud, is no more called a mud? The mud in the pot has taken a different form or shape, but mud is present in the pot also. Therefore, the conclusion is that different forms of bodies are representation of prakruti in different shapes, meaning that prakruti is changeable. Let ussee one more example. Suppose we have an ice cube and water. Ice is made from water. But because, ice has a particular shape, can we say that it is not made from water. No. Ice is made of water. Once ice melts, then it becomes water and mixes in water. Here we take ice as different types of physical bodies, and water as prakruti. Ice is made of water only. Similarly, all physical bodies are made from prakruti.
Swami Ram Swarup: Pot is made of mud but will not function as mud. We put foods in a pot made of mud but will not put food in mud. So prakriti ‘s definition is another as told above. And prakriti’s gunas made universe, definition is another one. Similarly the ice is used for another purpose and water is used for another purpose. But see pot, mud ,water and ice are made of prakriti’s gunas.

Ram Suri: Once ice is made from water, can anyone say that there is no water in ice? No. Ice is made from water, and it is in a different form now. When ice melts, then the water can be seen with naked eyes and this water merges in another drop of water. Similarly, when the physical are created from prakruti, it means that prakruti is in a different form now. Hence, when the physical bodies die, they all merge in prakruti, likeice after melting merges in water. If physical bodies are not prakruti, it means that ice is not water. If is so, then how come, ice after melting merges in water and how come physical bodies merge in prakruti after death? If physical bodies and prakruti aredifferent, then how can the physical bodies merge in prakruti?
Swami Ram Swarup: As already explained above the definition of prakriti is separate and definition of universe is separate, so universe can’t be claimed prakriti, butprakriti made. Ice is made of water but nobody says it water please. Everybody will say it is made of water.

Ram Suri: How can water mix with oil? Water can mix in water, but not in oil. Right? Similarly, physical bodies merge in prakruti due to their very prakrutic nature. Therefore, prakruti is changeable. Similarly, once creation is done, prakruti cannot say, “hey! Job of creation is done, and so I am separate from the creation, and let me take rest” like that. When the creation is done, prakruti is also spread in the universe in different forms. Since prakruti is non-alive, it starts functioning under the guidance of divine, like iron pieces move in the presence of a magnet. Therefore, the conclusion is that physicalbodies are also prakrutic in nature, Please see Gita 13/7, where Lord Krishna says that avyaktam etc have vikaras as it is considered to be the field of activities (ksetram).
Swami Ram Swarup: In Geeta shlok 13/5 and not 13/7, AVYAKTAM word is meant for prakriti and mahabhoot ahankar, budhhi, indriyanni etc., are prakriti made. AVYAKTAM means which is unseen and cannot be described and eternal too. So this prakriti. And which are seen and can be described are not prakriti. So body is seen and can be described and is thus not prakriti but prakriti made.

Ram Suri: This avyaktam is nothing but the prakruti. Anything, which has vikaras, is changeable. When prakruti has vikaras, it means that it is also changeable. In alive physical body, senses etc are called prakruti. A person does sadhana because he wants to bring some change in his attitudes etc. This change is not brought in the soul or in the physical body, but brought in senses etc by controlling mind etc due to practice of astanga yoga etc. See, before sadhana, the temperaments are bad, and by sadhana, these temperaments are eliminated and the senses are well under control. Now please tell me if there is any change in the sadhaka before and after lot of sadhana. Yes there is change. The person remains the same, and the soul also remains the same. Then where did these changes take place? The changes took place in senses etc. You agree that senses etc are not divine, but they are prakrutic. It means that here this change occurred in prakruti. Right? This means that prakruti is changeable. Right?
Swami Ram Swarup: Prakriti made whole universe is changeable. If senses are changeable it is not understood. Senses, organs, mind and budhhi are prakriti made, I have already told so many times. These are non-alive, its changes carry the body to death and it makes no difference to alive soul. As I already explained before by Rigveda mantra that this body has been blessed by God to soul to do pious deeds to get salvation otherwise to take several births in several yonis, according to karmas. So this body is used by alive soul to do pious deeds and otherwise. As mentioned in Vedas that the soul has a quality of attachment/ desire. This is also mentioned in Bhagwat Geeta 13/6 (ICHHA). So mostly soul is attached with materialistic articles made of prakriti and meets with sorrows etc. when anyone does tapsya etc., this attachment is finished then the jeevan mukta soul does not attach with materialistic articles or illusion. So change has come in alive soul by virtue of attachment, desire etc., but materialistic change has no meaning please.

Ram Suri previous reply: because, in the absence of jeevatma, this will disintegrate and merges into prakruti. We all know, soul is everlasting, and no changes occur to it. Now come back to your statement that prakruti is unchangeable. The physical body of a new-born baby is different from this body at adulthood. In other words, every thing in time space domain will change with time. How this happens withoutchanges in prakruti?
Ram Suri previous answer: The changes in prakruti take place under the influence of divine. Therefore, your understanding that prakruti is unchangeable is nottrue. Yes prakruti is everlasting as said by Lord Krishna in Gita.
Swamiji’s previous answer: Divine (God) is alive and prakriti is non-alive and can’t be compared being separate from each other.
Ram Suri present reply: You say that prakruti is non-alive. How come a non-alive thing be changeless forever? Divine is only changeless forever. Right? Divine uses non-alive prakruti for creation. Since creation is ever lasting process, the non-alive prakruti is also present forever, but nevertheless it is inferior to divine, and hence exists in different forms in the universe. No where it is mentioned to worship prakruti to obtain salvation. But everywhere it is mentioned to utilize the prakruti (physical body and senses etc) for divine realization.Right?
Swami Ram Swarup: This I have already explained before. The definition of prakriti is that when raj, tam and satv gunas are not functioning (Pralaya) so this stage is called prakriti. Please see Samkhya sutra 1/26 and Rigveda mandal 10. When this stage is prakriti then prakriti is not a man, woman or any statue etc., the said stage is called prakriti. so prakriti is not a substance except a stage when three gunas are not functioning i.e., are not creating universe. I.e. the stage of pralaya, etc. If it is not yet understood then you please name again with so many tittles that I am ignorant am having literal knowledge, I have got problem , I am doing partiality etc., etc., etc., and then I shall again try to shower Vedas’ views please. But I am not suppressing you to accept my views.

Swamiji’s previous reply: The authentic 10,000 shlokas are in Mahabharta. If Uddhav Geeta is based on these shlokas, please state. Secondly when there was no any Geeta before five thousand years back, then was it not possible to worship God or determine God based on four Vedas only.
Ram Suri present reply: “There was no any Geeta before five thousand years”? It clearly shows how much you are familiar with scriptures. Bhagawat Gita was not there before five thousand years back. But why do say that there are no any other Gitas available by that time? Astavakra Gita etc are available during at time. Sir! It is possible that you do not know about it, and you may also want to say that it is not found in Vedas and hence discard it.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas there is no any history please. I have described already about Vedas. I have said the word ,”any other Geeta” with the intention that Geeta like Bhagwat Geeta was not there. So when Bhagwat Geeta was not here in existence and the birth of Yogeshwar Shri Krishna Maharaj was not there, yet there was worship and that was based on Vedas. So why not now? I have read Ashtravakra Geeta but have not been considering the same in my article or writing etc., deeply. Actually you put the question about merger so it is astonished why you carry it towards Ashtravakra Geeta or Adi Shankracharya jee or literal meaning etc., etc. I do not want to stop you from these writings but it will save the time if you can please.

Ram Suri: Any how, what are you trying to say from your above answer? Are you saying that Bhagawat Geeta is inferior to Vedas? Or Are you saying that one should not worship Lord Krishna as the divine, as he is not available before 5,300 years?
Swami Ram Swarup: These are your own made views please, deviating from the topic. And so many times you have diverted the attention from the topic please. Okay I accept calmly.

Ram Suri: You said that you believe Bhagawat Gita and have agreed that Gita is based on the knowledge of four Vedas. Right? Then please read 4/6 to 8 slokas andreply me sir.
Swami Ram Swarup: According to Vedas this shlok 4/6 states that AJ means who is lack of birth and oldness etc., so AJ=God. Soul is also AJ because soul takes body only and not birth. Prakriti is also AJ because prakriti also does not take birth and never becomes old etc. The same meaning is of AVYAY. BHOOT word here is meant for (ashvarya) glory. So Krishna here says to Arjuna that he is AJAH AVYAYAH and master of all glories etc.

Swamiji’s previous reply: Please note that now present Mahabharta Granth has more than one lakh shlokas. In this connection it is said that in the time of king Vikramaditya the shlokas became 20,000, Maharaja Bhoj says 25,000 and more., and Shri Kashinath Rajvade writes,” the present Mahbharta is corrupt and enlarged edition of the ancient Mahabharta, this ancient work has been diluted from time to time with all sorts of additions and has grown in proportion on that account”.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I agree with you on this but who will determine that which slokas are original and which slokas are corrupt? Who will determine which scripture is authentic? Is this corruption done only in Maha Bharat? Or is it also applicable to others like Ramayana, Samkhya shastras, Yoga sutras, and Vedas too? Who has to say yes or no for this corruption? What is their authority? And again, by whom the above corruption started in those scriptures? People who have knowledge in Sanskrit can only corrupt such scriptures. Right? Other ordinary people, who do not know Sanskrit, cannot do this work. Right? People, who think that they know every thing, and who have the knowledge of Sanskrit will only do this corruption, and people who only reads Vedas but unable to grasp the subtle truths of spirituality can only do this corruption and thus bad customs in the society is introduced by them. Right?
Swami Ram Swarup: In this connection I have already given the proof of Ved mantras and yoga shastra sutra 1/7 that Vedas are self proof and the philosopher of Vedas and yoga who are alive are the proof. Those who would know the traditional knowledge of Vedas, how can they change the scriptures, so these views of yours are not understood. But the people are being mostly made afraid by some arrogants not to read Sanskrit andVedas to enable arrogants to spread their own views which are oftenly against the traditional knowledge of the Vedas. So please read my answers given before with regards to eight proofs and about Vedas. Here is only repetition. Again I tell you that I am telling the views based on Vedas, shastras if not accepted by you then it is not a matter that I will start objection or I will hate you. No please. My love is for all mankind.

Swamiji’s previous answer: With limited understanding I think I understand from Vedas that prakriti, soul and God are ever unchangeable and eternal. And your unlimited understanding do not tally Vedas please. Please carry on till its finalization.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! When you agree sincerely that you had limited understanding of Vedas, then how can you determine that my unlimited understanding does not tally with Vedas? It is not possible. Right?
Swami Ram Swarup: Because you have not read Vedas, I think so. Otherwise you could quote even a single Ved mantra. So I have told you a wiser of unlimited knowledge without Vedas. I have been told by you several times that I have a limited knowledge and literal knowledge which I accepted. That is why I have told you that you have unlimited knowledge to declare a person having literal knowledge only.

Swamiji’s previous answer: Gold is being gold being same but impure golden ring is mixed with some other metal, but in case of soul nothing can be mixed in the soul. The soul is covered with the illusion but illusion cannot enter in the soul.
Ram Suri present reply: You always miss the central point, but hang on to the unnecessary details in materialistic examples. I never said that soul is impure, but said that it is covered by different layers of kleshas, like kam, krodh, moh, etc. When the soul is covered by these layers, I am calling this soul as a conditioned soul technically for easyunderstanding. I explained my position or stand many times in my previous postings. But never read them by your heart or tried to grasp the meaning. Instead, you are looking for the terms like ‘conditioned soul or unconditioned soul’ in scriptures.
Swami Ram Swarup: When you give the example of impure gold with soul then what have to be told. It will be told that soul can not be mixed with any impurity. Yet if I miss then its okay please. There are so many souls one is a jeevan mukta and other who is covered with illusion, that is all please. So I am not in a position to understand your sense about conditioned and unconditioned souls. Because I have not read in Vedas please and you also agree in your above statement that it is not mentioned in scriptures. Please clarify about conditioned and unconditioned souls.

Swamiji’s previous reply: Already explained above please. In Geeta shlok 6/5 there is no mention of controlled/uncontrolled mind.
Ram Suri present reply: You will not find the terms ‘controlled or uncontrolled’ in this sloka sir. I am giving the essence of the sloka. As usual sir, you missed the central point again.
Swamiji’s previous reply: Here Shri krishna clearly uses the word,” ATMA ATMANAM UDHRET” i.e., soul (Atma) must elevate himself through self and not degrade himself. The soul himself is his friend as well as his enemy.
Ram Suri present reply: A soul does not have any impurities. Right? You said, ” After sadhna, illusion will be over, so the soul with cover or without cover is same and unchangeable” in you above answers. Right? When soul is as luminous as before, then why it should treat itself as a friend or enemy?
Swami Ram Swarup: This has been told by Shri Krishna in shlok 6/5 told by you. This is regarding illusion if soul uses mann, budhhi, senses to uncover then friend otherwise enemy.

Ram Suri: After sadhana, all senses are under well control. Before sadhana also, the soul is also luminous, but it is covered by different layers, like kama, krodh etc.,Then by controlling the senses, these layers are removed. Right? Then, when I said that controlled/uncontrolled mind, it should be understood as controlling of senses. I also know that the terms ‘controlled or uncontrolled’ are not found in the sloka. But the sloka is conveying the meaning that the senses are like friend when they are controlled, whilethey are enemies under uncontrolled situation. Your understanding that ‘soul himself is his friend as well as his enemy’ is totally wrong. Please think again sir.
Swami Ram Swarup: Non-alive matters are always controlled by alive. One (soul) will control his eye not to see bad scene but eye will not control itself being non-alive, etc., etc. Explained above please. Please throw your views now.

Swamiji’s previous reply: Soul is separate and mind is separate. The soul has not been made by any body and is alive matter whereas mind has been made of prakriti— a non-alive matter.
Ram Suri present reply: The soul is not made of any body (matter). I agree on this. But you say alive matter again. One side you are saying that soul is not made of any matter, but on the other hand you are saying that soul is a live matter When soul is notmade by anybody else and can not be made even like God and like prakriti that is why soul is called in Vedas ,”SWAYAM BHU”. So your views are not understood to me.Please clarify again. When soul is not made of any type of matter, then where is the question of soul being made of live matter or non-alive matter? Sir! You are contradictingyour own statements. You are not clear what you are saying here.
Swami Ram Swarup: Soul is SWAYAM BHU and eternal like God, but soul is not God and cannot be even. Please study the meaning of “ANADI”. Soul is ANADI which I have told several times above and before.

Swamiji’s previous answer: So in Rigveda mantra 1/164/20,” DWA SUPARNNA SAKHYA” does not suit in your quotation.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! You quoted the above mantra first, but you are saying now that I had quoted it and does not suit. You quoted it first, and thus I am answering to it. Please vide my previous posting carefully.
Swami Ram Swarup: The meaning of this mantra explained by you do not suit the Vedas fundamental law please. The meaning I quoted say that prakriti made body is there in which soul and God live. But you have told another meaning. Doesn’t matter you accept your meaning and I accept my meaning. But love must be there.

Swamiji’s previous reply: A jeevan mukta has no soul, as you say,
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I never said that a jeevan mukta does not have a soul. Tthere is some misunderstanding in understanding of my postings. I request you to read my previous posting very carefully. Or please show my wordings where I had said that a jeevan muktas has no soul. I will explain on this again.
Swami Ram Swarup: Several times you have said please that the soul of jeevan mukta after leaving the present body will merged in God. So naturally the soul will not have existence. I cannot locate your correct words at this juncture being busy please.

Swamiji’s previous reply: “but jeevan mukta is a soul himself. Jeevan mukta like Vyas Muni, Yagyavalkya etc., used to discharge their duties daily”
Ram Suri present reply: I agree on this. But I never said that a jeevan mukta has no soul. Or else please prove it.
Swamiji’s previous reply: I had already explained Rigveda mantra 1/164/20 which says about tree (made of prakriti), birds (soul ) and third God( who is witness of all). I would request you to study this mantra from philosopher of Vedas because two types of souls have not been mentioned in Vedas.
Ram Suri present reply: It is possible that you did not read my earlier answer carefully. Even if you had read it, it is possible that you did not understand it. I never said that there are two types of souls in my answer. I once again request you to read the answers carefully and then reply. Also please show me where I had said two types of souls. I will explain it again.
Swami Ram Swarup: You have been telling please about conditioned and unconditioned souls, is it not two types? If I am wrong please clarify again.

Swamiji’s previous reply: Souls are uncounted, quality being same and the God is omnipresent.
Ram Suri present reply: Souls are uncounted. I agree on this. But what are you trying to prove from it? Every body also knows that divine is omnipresent. So, what is your question or objection here? Are you trying to say that since there are uncounted souls, and since divine is one, they both are different? I answered to this objection many times in my previous postings that under what circumstances soul is different from divine, and under what situations soul becomes divine. Surprisingly, you are unable to catch this point sir.
Swami Ram Swarup: God is separate and souls are separate and prakriti is separate by qualities and God is omnipresent and the sense of saying this all is that souls cannot be merged into God, as you say please.

Swamiji’s previous reply: My Dear, the literal meaning doesn’t solve the purpose and dear you don’t even know the literal meaning of Vedas, I think so.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I remember you saying previously that you have limited understanding of Vedas. Now how come you judge with your limited understanding about me whether I know or not? It is not possible. Right?
Swami Ram Swarup: I know I have told you that you have unlimited knowledge. Previously you first told me that there is no any guarantee that I have knowledge of Vedas and you have told me that even above also that I do not know even literal knowledge of the Vedas. So I, based on not having literal knowledge etc., have told you a wiser of unlimited knowledge please. But I thank you that a wiser like you is carrying on talk with a man who is even does not know ABC about any knowledge.Thanking you and hope you will sure shower blessing upon me, a simple man to carry on this discussion till its finalization with your happiness.

Swamiji’s previous reply: That if a sadhak is still away to practice ashtang yoga, then secret of mantra will not be known.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! How do you know for sure either me or some other persons do astanga yoga or not. What is the basis for this assumption by you? This is the trouble with you. You assume by default that others do not do astanga yoga but you only do it. You assume that others do not read any thing, but you only read them. You assume that others do not know Sanskrit, but you only know it. Sir! This type of assumption is not good.
Swami Ram Swarup: Trouble is this that you are a wiser having unlimited knowledge and you are carrying the discussion with a simple man. Now come to the point, he who does ashtang yoga or not, he himself know and this is not to be told to anybody else. If I say the fundamental of the Vedas i.e., Rigveda mantra 1/164/16 says that the lack of knowledge of yoga do not know about the secrets of Vedas, shastras,upnishads, Bhagwat Geeta etc., so it is not a mean that who is doing yoga or who is not yoga practice please. You utter your own made views always which are accepted too. Where I have told about ashtang yoga or studying of Vedas being done by me or anybody else. Sir your views are wonderful and happily accepted. Where I told that I know Sanskrit and no others?

Swamiji’s previous reply: So I will be happy if you start studying Vedas to know even literal meaning of any divine word of any Veda.
Ram Suri present reply: Thanks for your kind words. On the other hand, sir! For how many divine words of Vedas did you understand the literal meaning so far with your limited understanding, as you had claimed earlier?
Swami Ram Swarup: I know nothing but know that Vedas are true being eternal knowledge direct from God. You are a wiser than me having unlimited knowledge please.

Swamiji’s previous reply: The study of Vedas sure gives peace as had been giving in the past three yugas.
Ram Suri present reply: Most of the people are at the reader level only. And that’s what you are also asking to do now. That is the reason why they are unable to grasp the very subtle meaning of Vedas. This is the very same reason we had persons like Ravan, Kansa, Duyodhan etc in the past, and also in the present in different forms. Ravan had read all Vedas, but he did not understand the essence of the spirituality of Vedas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please give any proof that Ravana read Vedas. The dignities you have told above with literal knowledge I tell you are of those who were against the Vedas. Ravana used to kill the Rishis from whom the Vedas are listened. Then how he learnt Vedas from a Rishi. Rishi Vishwamitr jee brought Shri Ram to escape from the demons deputed by Ravana. With literal knowledge I say to you, a wise man that perhaps, it has been a saying that Ravana read Vedas and could not understand. Thisis a tact to ruin the Vedas’ knowledge. Please accept it or not because it is from a literal knowledge. But here you are again changing the topic of merged soul.

Ram Suri: Thus Ravan was only a good reader, but not spiritually inclined person. That is the reason he kidnapped Sita and fought with Lord Ram and died in the war. Because of people like Dhuryodhan, Kansa etc, lots, lots of innocent people were killed. You say it is peaceful in the past three yugas, when lots of people were killed. Peace could be established only due to Lord Ram and Lord Krishna during their respective yugas.
Swami Ram Swarup: With literal knowledge I say that Soul is free always to do good or bad. In all Vedas specially Yajurveda mantra 11/14 -15,10/22,11/77-78,11/82,Saamveda 1172, Atharvaveda 2/7/1-2, it is mentioned that the king must punish the evils. I think it is enough please. Otherwise please clarify if there should have no war at that time like Shri Ram- Ravana, Shri Krishna -Kans and Mahabharta etc.

Swamiji’s previous reply: Please study Saamveda wherein the importance of Yajna has been stressed by Almighty God to get peace, to burn sins and even to get salvation. After studying Vedas, if one starts studying holy Geeta then he will be surprised that holy Geeta is fully based on four Vedas and he will be able to understand the real meaning of Bhagwat geeta. That is why Shri Krishna says that He is Saamveda. So to know the reality of Shri Krishna, one will have to study and follow the path of Saamveda.
Ram Suri present reply: If one has to read SaamVed in order to know the reality of Lord Krishna, then in Gita, Lord Krishna also said that he is the king of heaven (Indra) among gods. Did you also learn about Indra as per your self-rule?
Swami Ram Swarup: Yes I have explained before with the literal knowledgeabout Indra etc., please see there.

Ram Suri: But when you do not believe in the existence of other gods, how can you learn about the king of gods, Indra? You could not have learnt about Indra. Right?Therefore, when you do not follow this rule, then how come you ask others to follow it? Please do not misunderstand me that I am insulting you or anyone.
Swami Ram Swarup: I am not forcing you to study any Veda but has said clearly to follow your path. There is no any other power like God’s to help the only one Almighty God who creates the universe, says Vedas. And Bhagwat Geeta is based on Vedas please. With literal knowledge I have given the knowledge of swarg, narak and indra etc., according to knowledge of Vedas. If not accepted then it’s okay please.

Swamiji’s previous answer: “And in 13/4 chapter that all this knowledge is in the Vedas and Rishis have already told from Vedas i.e., Shri Krishna is giving knowledge from Vedas too”.
Ram Suri previous reply: You gave a wrong reference from Gita. The correct reference is 13/5. But it is ok. I am not so serious on this. Let us move on.
Swamiji’s previous reply: NO, I QUOTED 13/4 WHICH ISCORRECT AND YOU HAVE QUOTED 13/5 WHICH ISWRONG.
Ram Suri present reply: You have said the following in your previous reply: “And in 13/4 chapter that all this knowledge is in the Vedas and Rishis have already told from Vedas i.e., shri Krishna is giving knowledge from Vedas too”. However, when I pointed out your mistake in my email, you are still saying that the reference you quoted iscorrect. In this reference there is no mention of Vedas and Rishis please.
Swami Ram Swarup: It is mentioned in 13/4 that ,”RISHIBHIHI BAHUDAGEETAM” ETC., ETC., AND IT IS Geeta printed by Geeta Press Gorakhpur, here Rishibhi means who knows Ved mantras, Geetam means to sing a song of Ved mantrasetc., etc.

Ram Suri: Please do not be hurry, and I once again request you to look into this reference carefully. In 13/5 sloka, the words rishis and Vedas are present. I will wait for your answer for this.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote your reference 13/5 stating shlokas.

Everybody say that God has created the universe but these views, though, are true but seem to be not based on the study of Vedas (Yajurveda Chapter 31 and Rigveda Mandal 10). So the words are being used like a traditional saying, which is wrong, being a cut-piece. Especially Atharvaved Kand 12, Sukta 5, Mantra 50 and the whole Kand 12 mostly, warn to study the Vedas in full and your statement must be based on Vedas’ knowledge as proof. Atharvaveda Mantra 7/2/1 speaks that he who has not studied the Vedas in full, has not practiced Ashtang Yoga and thus has not realized God and has not known about the creation and unisexual creation of human beings at the beginning of the earth, he is not an authentic person to deliver any preach to anybody. So the preach of such like mantras must be seriously adhered to. The secret of this mantra is that when a person will study Vedas in full, and do yoga practice, and will be able to understand the creation in accordance with the philosophy of the above said Yajurveda Chapter 31 and Mandal 10 of Riveda the only he will be able to understand the traitvad because in the said Mantras, Almighty God has clearly preached that universe is made of non-alive Prakriti, souls get bodies in accordance with their karmas and God is within souls, and prakriti made the universe.

The said Mandal 10 Sukta 129 of Rigveda speaks – “Na Sat Aseet Na Asat Aseet, Na Mrituyu Aseet Na Amritam.” This is the description after the final destruction of the universe and before the next creation, i.e. of the time gap where no creation existed. That is why the God preaches in this Mantra that there was no Sat, i.e. Almighty God was there but His power, which is called “Sat” here, was not in action to create universe. And therefore, Asat didn’t exist there. Asat means that the previous creation, that is, earth, moon, air, space, etc. because it was the time gap after the previous final destruction of the universe and before the next creation. “Na Mrityuhu Asset Na Amritam”. Amritam means final liberation of the soul. When there was no birth and death, therefore, there was no question of any salvation. Again the mantra says “Tat Ekam” i.e. one truth (God). “Swadhya” i.e. Swayambhu. “Avatum” i.e. without requiring air etc. to live upon. “Aaseet” i.e. was there. Its meaning is that between the gap stated above, there was only Almighty God present who requires nothing to live upon, neither requires any assistance of organs etc. To see, listen and walk etc. and especially because God is called swadhya (Swayambhu) which means that nobody has made the God and therefore God Himself is without reasoning.

For example, a child is a reason of parents to take birth but God has no reason being Swadhya (Swa=self, Dhya=firmness). Here I shall draw attention of all concerned to Rigveda Mantra 1/164/46 wherein it is stated that God is one but according to His unlimited qualities, His holy names are also unlimited. On this basis, we draw our attention to Rigveda Mantra 1/1/1 – “Agnim Ede Purohitam…”. Ag Agrini dhatu produces word Agni which means “Firstly” or “before”. Ede means “desire”. The meaning of the mantra will be – I must desire to realize the God Who was present before creation. So we must worship the God and must not worship His creation, the mantra says. Secondly, the God is self-firmness. So nobody has the power to make God or determine God at his own accord. In this connection, Yajurveda Mantra 32/3 also refers, saying, “Na Tasya Pratima Asti.” Pratima means (Pratimaap) i.e. beyond measurement and weight and therefore without shape. So we must hundred percent fix our deterimination about God that He is formless and self-firmness, needs no assistant being Almighty, independent, etc. etc.

So this is one (first) eternal truth. In the next mantra 3 of this Sukta 129, there was another eternal truth called (Aabhu Aseet) “AABHU” (Prakriti) which is the cause of creation of universe. That is called AABHU (Prakirti) a substance was also there, which is used for creation. “Tat Mahina” i.e. from this ABHU (Prakirti), a Mahat (mind) originated which was the first substance created at the time of beginning of the earth. Mandal 10 of Rigveda Mantra cited above further says, in Mantra 5, Sukta 129 – “Retodhana Aasan”.

“Ret” means the first seed of desire orinated in mind (Mann in Hindi) at the beginning of the earth, as stated in Mantra 4, Sukta 129. “Retodhaha” means orinally the desire are held by alive souls. So the mantra says that the second truth, before creation, was alive souls and souls were “Mahimaanaha Aasan” i.e. souls were countless, “Eshan Rashmihi” i.e. the souls were bound with previous karmas, therefore were waiting for the next birth in new creation. So this is the second eternal truth called souls. In next mantra 6, it is said – “Kah Addha Ved” i.e who knows the fact of above cited God, souls and ABHU (Prakriti) at this juncture. Juncture means systemaically we are studying Mandal 10 Mantra and we have reached only upto 6th Mantra. Uptil now the description of Almighty, the only God, Prakriti and the countless souls, we have learnt and not any other truth. Now we proceed and see that this Mantra 6th further says, “Because the learned persons have not yet taken birth and will take birth at the time of complete creation, so nobody was there and therefore nobody can thus, describe about the God, souls or about the creation as from which element the creation is made of. Next Mantra 7th of this Sukta throws knowledge that the Almighty God truly is the commander of the non-alive matter i.e, prakriti, further says because the Almighty God is the Commander of the matter (prakriti). “Sah Yadi Vaa Dadhe Yadi Vaa Naa” i.e. it is upto God whether He creates universe or not. Though the creation is automatic but the scret of these lines is that when the power of God starts functioning in the matter (prakriti) then only the creation starts and until the power of the God does not start functioning in that matter (prakriti), the creation will never take place. Based on the knowledge of Vedas, Muni Kapil says in his Sankhya Shastra Sutra 1/26 that from Prakriti the first substance originated in the form of ‘Mahat’ mind, then Ahankaar, 5 Tan Matras, 5 matters and 11 organs (Indriyan). Therefore, there remains no scope of Advaitvad because the conclusion of these Mantras comes that before creation, three eternal substances always remain i.e. Almighty God, souls (both alive) and non-alive prakriti. Creation from Prakriti and final destruction at the stipulated time is called “Sansar Chakra” and this Chakra according to Yajurveda Mantra 31/3 remains in one part (Padah Asya Vishwa Bhutani) power of Almighty God, as also said in Geeta Shloka 10/42. In this Sansaar Chakra, the eternal soul due to attachment with worldly affairs made of Prakriti, is wandering (birth and death) in sorrows, problem, etc. A spiritual master when preaches the aspirant, then only the soul recollect his eternal stage.

Atharvaveda Mantra 1/164/16 says “Akshanvaan Pashyat Na Vi Chetat Andhaha” that is, he who knows enternal knowledge of Vedas, has been performing Yagya (Yajna) and practiced Yoga philosophy, he realizes God and he who is lack of the same knowledge cannot. Yajurveda Mantra 6/5 says “Suryaha Vishnoho Paramam Padam Sada Pashyanti” that is Suryaha (Philosopher of Vedas and does Yoga) ever sees (realises) the Almighty and omnipresent God. Yajurveda Mantra 40/13 says “Dheeranam Tat Shushrum”. Dheeranam means he knows Vedas and practices Ashtang Yoga and realizes God, so the meaning of mantra is that we, aspirants have been listening about Almighty God from Dheeranam and like this, there are so many other remaining Ved mantras, which clarify that based on the knowledge of Vedas, he who does Yagya and practice of Ashtang Yoga is capable to realize the secret of Prakriti, souls and Almighty God. This is called Traitvad because it has got three enternal subjects cited latter. Our ancient Rishis have preached that to know the truth, there are four authentic proofs, as also said by Patanjali Rishi in his Yoga Shastra Sutra 1/7 –
“Pratyakshanuman Aagamaha Pramaanani”. So in Aagam Pramaan there are two pramaan (proofs) to realize truth:
(i) “Aaptodeshaha Shabdaha” (Sankhya Shastra, Sutra 1/66). That is a Rishi who knows Vedas and has realised God by practicing Ashtang Yoga, is considered a proof to realize truth of traitvad cited above, which means that whatever he says is true, because he only says his experience of samadhi (salvation) and hard study of Vedas and practical Yajna. That is why Kapil Muni has told in his said sutra that the preach of such Rishi is true and is considered a proof to determine the truth.

(ii) Second proof in Aagam Pramaan is – four Vedas but Vedas have not been written by any Rishi etc. Vedas are the knowledge originated in the heart of four Rishis at the time of creation. So Vedas are considered as “Swataha Pramaan” (self-proof) being the knowledge direct from God. So Vedas need no proof. On this matter of Vedas, there are so many Ved Mantras like Yajurveda Mantra 31/7. The said mantra says that Rigveda, Samveda, Atharvaveda and Yajurveda – is the enternal knowledge from God, that is, Vedas emanated direct from God, so are self-proof, that is why, Rishi Patanjali says in his Yoga Shastra Sutra 1/26:

“Saha Eshah Poorvesham Api Guruhu Kalenaan Avachedat” that is the Almighty God is the first Guru of the ancient Rishi at the time of first unisexual creation. The God, by His power originated the knowledge of four Vedas in the heart of four Rishis and thereafter the Rishi-Munis of such qualities have been our Guru. Vyas Muni, commenting on this Sutra 1/26, says that at the time of creation, there was no Guru to give knowledge to the persons because every Rishi left his body in the previous creation, which creation had been destroyed in the final destruction of universe (Pralaya) and as a principle, until knowledge is given by anybody, the knowledge cannot be attained. So our first Guru is Almighty God Himself, who gave the knowledge of four Vedas, which was followed by our ancient Rishis traditionally and we have to follow to maintain the eternal culture and realize Prakriti, soul and God, being the main objective of this human life. Therefore, in the whole world, that path or the knowledge is true which tallies with four Vedas. This fundamental law of God must be known by everybody seriously to reach the truth. Unluckily, most of the saints are talking at their own accord and what a wonder even that they usually tell not to study the Vedas, no to perform the holy Yajna and not to follow the Yoga philosophy; which are against the Vedas, the knowledge of God.

It has been a matter of pleasure for me that on the Internet several questions are being sent regarding spiritualism and with the grace of Almighty God, I’ve been answering, totally based on the knowledge of four Vedas as proof. Recently, the questions regarding Advaitvad are being received, which are placed in this section for the aspirants to study, to understand the truth, please. Comments of the readers will be appreciated.

Since long, I have been receiving questions on Internet from world level aspirants on the matter of faith. I ever thank Almighty God who has truly blessed me with the knowledge to satisfy the concerned personnel. I heartily take it a service for humanity provided by God and I really feel personal satisfaction while receiving calm reply from all concerned. Spiritualism is a vast, the deepest and even hard subject and to satisfy the aspirants is not an easy task even. As a matter of fact, all will too appreciate that there is one Almighty God who creates, nurses, destroys and again creates the universe. And too that the goal of all human beings is to realize God by promoting international brotherhood. But it has been my personal feeling that until and unless till such time a man will not be able to know and realize the true qualities of only one Almighty God who is a creator and nursing the universe like our father, the ravages of hatred cannot be made ended and spreading of love at the level of International brotherhood will be affected.

Let us, therefore share our sources to spread brotherhood Internationally by trying our level best to know the real truth, that is Almighty God, while discharging our moral duties towards family, society and nation.

IndiaTimes invites Swami Ram Swarup regularly for celebrity chats on http://chat.indiatimes.com. These chats enable Internet users to ask their questions to Swamiji and get responses instantly.

These are the transcripts of some of the chats that have been recently conducted:

Chat Transcripts: February 10, 2004

Chat Transcripts: December 05, 2003

Chat Transcripts: August 14, 2003

Chat Transcripts: May 17, 2003

You can send in your questions for Swami Ram Swarup to answer.

Ram Suri: Dear Swamiji, Namaskar. Please see my following responses for your previous answers. I do not have any hatred or anger while mentioning these answers. If they hurt you, please forgive me.

Swami Ram Swarup previous reply: If the karmas become zero by doing pious deeds, worship, yoga practice etc., then there becomes no next birth because birth means soul is provided with organs like eyes etc., and legs etc., and body to face the result of past births’ deeds etc. When karmas become zero, then no need of next body and soul remains always in merriment with minute/smallest organs which are called invisible sukshm sharir in Hindi and this sharir remains in space. And such souls get salvation i.e., final liberation.

Ram Suri’s response: Dear Swamiji, Namaskar. I am very thankful for your kind answer for this question. However, I feel your answer was not complete. The last statement in your answer was that “And such souls get salvation i.e., final liberation”. But my question was that where is the location of these souls that got absolute salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: Salvation means moksh. It does not mean that jeevatma has become God. If jeevatma becomes God then what is the charm of saying moksh i.e., who will realise the pleasure of moksh and in case of God salvation is not required. So soul cannot be God at any stage because it is not mentioned in four Vedas.

Ram Suri: In other words, do they merge in divine to become divine?
Swami Ram Swarup: No please, it is not possible as if soul is one like God then in Samkhya Shashtra sutra 1/122 of Kapil Muni says that so many rishis like Vaamdev got salvation (mukti) but remaining souls uptill now has no concern with salvation, so the Rishi says in the sutra. “adwaitam na” i.e., there is no adwaitvad in the matter of souls. It means souls are uncounted and god is only one. And not even one mantra of any Veda says that God has been transferred in so many souls while indulging in maya and after sadhana God gets salvation. Salvation is only a subject of souls. In Rigved mandal 10 sukta 135 it is clearly mentioned that soul is eternal and God bless him with body especially human body to realise God. In Rigved mantra 10/177/1 God awards salvation to souls. In Rigved 10/135/3 it is mentioned that soul when due to ignorance gets body then soul take so many death and rebirth (new bodies) but on the other hand God never takes body because it is not in God’s quality. God is beyond death and birth. But sorry to say that due to lack of knowledge of Vedas, presently so many saints say that maya is the power of God by which God creates His own bodies (and does leela etc., etc.,) some say that maya is equivalent to God and the things of God cannot be wrong, this is totally against the Vedas. See what is maya. Rajo gun, tamo gun and sato gun is maya by which kaam, krodh etc., so many illusions are originated and all, Vedas say that man and woman must be brahamchari and even in family life he must be controlling all these kaam,krodh,mad ,ahankaar etc. At the time of creation Vedas are originated by God in the heart of four Rishis and the Vedas are the first proof to recognise truth. There are about 108 upnishads but only 11 upnishads are considered authenticated because of proof of Vedas. Some saint say if God wishes (sankalp) then maya will start working and if God wishes to stop it will be stopped. See , there is no any sankalp or vikalp in God according to four Vedas as a proof in token. So these saints are saying at their own accord. Sankalp and vikalp is only in souls only.

Ram Suri: The way a river merges into a sea and becomes a seaor these souls would present near to the divine and enjoy the merriments?
Swami Ram Swarup: River has water and sea has water and both water has same qualities and are non alive and are destroyed at last being made of prakriti. In Chhandog upnishad 6/9/1,2,3 also clearifies wherein it is mentioned that when soul reaches to truth (God), soul does not loose his original shape. Whereas soul and God has diferent qualities and are alive and eternal and neither born nor got death and not made by any matter. So to quote the example of river and sea in the matter of God is not justified. A drop of raining water if fallen in sea will be a sea, no doubt. But from where we can bring a drop of God. Drop means the piece of God and it is not possible, God being unchangeable, deshapable. Someone say the soul is wave of water separated from ocean and when will be fallen again in ocean will become ocean again, it is true. Because usually in the ocean so many waves are rising. Why? Because ocean is flowing on earth and waves are going above in the space. But this is not applicable in the matter of God, God being omnipresent and has no space to raise any wave from Him to any space.

Ram Suri: This will help to take corresponding position for further discussion. I will be grateful to you if you could quote proof from Vedas or Upanishads or Gita for your claims. Coming to invisible sukshm sharir for soul that attained absolute salvation, Brahma Sutras IV.2.8 says that this sharir is present for a liberated soul (Please remember! Liberated soul hasn’t got absolute salvation), and this body lasts until this soul merges in divine for final absolute salvation. Swami Ram Swarup: Braham sutra 4/2/8 clearifies that shuksham sharir of ignorant is up to pralay and of knolwedgest up to Braham prapti. But we can’t come to the point based only on this sutra. It is related with the previous and forward sutras. Please study sutra 4/2/15,16 also wherein word “AVIBHAGAH” is qouted. AVIBHAG means during Moksh, salvation or final liberation etc., etc., the soul will not loose his original shape as mentioned in Chhandog upnishad 6/9/1,2. Therefore merger (laya) means the soul with his shuksham sharir will not act as this was doing when sea was not merged but will retain his shukshamsharir at the time of merger. (salvation, moksh, total liberation, final liberation, kevalaya pad, samadhi, absolute salvation etc.,) otherwise how soul can enjoy moksh, pleasure without shuksham sharir. Because soul is unable to do anything without shuksham or sathul sharir. Please see Braham sutra 4/4/11 wherein Jemini accepts the shuksham sharir in moksh. Please see Chhandog upnishad 7/26/2 wherein it is mentioned that in moksh the soul builts 3,5,11 and thousands i.e., types of body. Because soul cannot be divided into bodies. Please see Kath upnishad 2/6/10 which says that when mind and five senses becomes stable in God i.e.,called total salvation. Please See shalok 15 of the same Kath upnishad wherein it is said that soul with pure senses and mind enjoys the final liberation.

Ram Suri: But, as per your understanding, the soul that attained final salvation would possess sukshm sharir, which contradicts the above Brahma Sutra. I may make a guess the reason for this type of understanding on your part.
Swami Ramswar: This does not contradicts please as explained above. What happens, we generally do not study full Vedas, shahstras. Whatever suits us we choose. Whereas after stuyding full shashtras the conclusion can be attained. Atharvaveda 12th kand clearifies that cut pieces are not required, full study is required. For example some saints say that Tulsi says — KALYUG KEWAL NAAM ADHARA etc., because it suits them but they will not tell about Uttra kand that Tulsi also says — YOG AGNI PRAKAT KARI KARAM SHUBHA SHUBH LAI. Means one should do yoga pratice to burn all good and bad deeds. They will not say “KOI NAHIN MANAT NIGAM ANUSASAN, DWIJ SHRUTI BECHAK BHOOP PRAJASAN. ” – means nobody accepts Vedas’ philosophy and Gurus do not know Vedas etc., etc. it is also astonished that mostly Gurus says not to read six shashtras but choose their favourable sutra only. They say that shashtras are against each other which is totally false. The six Rishis who wrote the six shashtras were MANTRADRISHTA RISHIS i.e., philosopher of Vedas and Yoga, i.e., Brahamleen. They chose one subject from Vedas and that is why the six shahstras have different subjects but not against each other. Kapil Muni chose prakriti, Vyas Muni chose God, Patanjali Rishi yoga, etc., etc. but it does not mean that those Rishis were ignorant of other subjects of Vedas. We must try to spread truth,avoid untruth and cut piece knowledge.

Ram Suri: Perhaps, you are talking about the souls that reached Brahma Lok by Krama mukti path.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please, I am talking about final liberation.

Ram Suri: These souls at Brahma Lok are called liberated souls, but nevertheless, they haven’t yet attained the absolute salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please ,such like liberation is not mentioned in Vedas. It may be self made.

Ram Suri: These souls will stay at Brahma Lok till the time of pralaya, and they attain divine along with Lord Brahma for final salvation, as described in Brahma Sutras IV.3.10.
Swami Ram Swarup: As I already told these sutra relates to previous and forward sutras, so please also study Brahm sutra 4/3/ 12,13 &14 which clearifies that soul realises Braham only (moksh) and will not stay till time of pralaya ( officiating Braham lok etc.,). Refer Chhandog upnishad 5/10/2, 8/6/6 and kath upnishad 2/3/16. Sutra 14 clearifies that there is no any officiating Brahm lok where soul will stay till pralaya.

Ram Suri: I can quote some of the instances to show that liberated souls will possess the invisible body. But this body is not found once the soul attains divine for salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote the examples because it is not mentioned in four Vedas.

Ram Suri: Chandogya Upanishad, 7.26.2 says that liberated soul has a body and organs. Interestingly, Brahma Sutras, IV.4.12 says that liberated soul can exist in both ways, that is, with body and organs or without body and without organs. Brahma Sutras, IV.4.13 says that for liberated soul that has no body and no organs, the enjoyment is like in dreams, while for those souls with body and organs, the enjoyment is like in waking state (Brahma Sutras, IV.4.14). Please, remember, the soul described here is a liberated soul only, whichhas not yet obtained absolute salvation. I am skipping all details on the assumption that you know them in detail. The conclusion is that you did not answer for my question about the location of soul that attained absolute salvation. Instead, you gave answer for liberated souls.
Swami Ram Swarup: Salvation ia always final salvation and not in parts please, I have explained the sutra above which were quoted by you.

Swami’s previous reply: I do not say but the advaitvad says the remaining matter is God and not divine because in advaitvad they say EKO BRAHAM DWITIYO NA ASTI. Its meaning, they say, — there is only one God and nothing else so the soul, body, sun , etc., allare God. But by misunderstanding like a snake in the rope these matters are being looked by an ignorant as sun, body etc. This does not suit from Vedas.

Ram Suri present response: When advaitins say that “EKO BRAHAM DWITIYO NA ASTI”, it should be analyzed under what context this sentence is applied. It should not be applied in a loose or general sense. Many Upanishads also repeat the above sentence that other than the divine nothing else is present. Then, one may wonder here that if every thing is divine, then what about sun, moon, other planets etc.
Swami Ram Swarup: Atharvaveda kand 13 sukta 4 mantra 16, 17, 18, 20, 21 clarify that there is only one God and equivalent to this God there is no two three or unlimited God, but souls and prakriti is there who are not equivalent to God even, mantra 13,14,15 also clarifynthe same. As regard EKO BRAHAM DWITYA NA ASTI here adwitya means there is no second God because the reference is of God here. When reference/context is of God then souls or prakriti can’t be considered stating that there is only one God and souls and prakriti are not there. Can anybody go against the above Rigveda mantras or against the shahstras and upnishads? But SWATAH PRAMAAN is only Vedas. If there is anything against Vedas mentioned in any Upniahad or literature then those are not acceptable. Because in Samkhya shahstra and yog shashtra too Rishi say in sutra 1/7 that PRATAKSHA ANUMAAN AAGAM PRAMANANNI. I.e., aagam (ved) Vedas are final proof. Shevtashwaropnishad 6/8 says that equivalent or above God there is nothing but God’s knowledge, power and karam are automatic ( swabhavik) i.e., God has to create world and has to give bodies to unlimited souls from prakriti and this task of God is automatic i.e., HE needs no assistance and sankalp. In Chhandog upnishad it is said EKAM ADWITYAM MEANS BEFORE CREATION THERE WAS ONLY ONE God. And equivalent to this God there was no other God and can not be. But as said in RigVeda mandal 10 sukta 129 that before creation God ,souls and prakriti Everybody eternal) were there in unseen original shape. And name of prakriti is AABHU in mantra 3 from which the first mahat tatv (mind) was created. In mantra 7 the God is said to be the commander of this prakriti. In mantra 5 the description of souls (eternal and inlimited) were there who were waiting for birth(body). So tretvad is there according to not only Rigved alone, but according to four Vedas.

Ram Suri: In order to understand the context of above sentences clearly, we will take an example. When we say Surya dev, for example, it is understood that he has some physical body, which is not seen with our mortal eyes. This body may not resemble like our body. The physical body is perishable after some time. Also it should be understood that Surya dev has also a soul. The perishable body in his case also merges in prakruti after destruction.
Swami Ram Swarup: There is no any mantra in four Vedas to say that Surya dev has soul. Yask Muni in his Shathpath Brahmin Granth clarifies the meaning of word Dev first dev= YE DADATI SAH DEVAH i.e., he who gives something that is Dev. So sun, moon etc., are devah which gives us ray of light, energy etc. Vedas say SURYA ATMA JAGATAS TASTUSCH means God is the atma of surya and souls’ i.e., God is omnipresent. In Brihandarnayk upnishad Yagvalk Muni has clarified about five alive Deva and 33 non-alive deva. In 33 non alive Deva surya is there. So surya is non-alive and has got no alive soul. So surya has physical body and is being seen by all. Surya has no unseen body. Here you are saying about prakriti and merging of sun in it, which is correct. So prakriti is there and God is also there in the universe.

Ram Suri: On the other hand, when divine says, “I am sun among bright things” in Gita (10/21).
Swami Ram Swarup: In Rigved mantra 1/164/46 it is said that there is only one God but His names are several and surya, chandrma, vaayu are also the name of God, it is said. So Yogeshwar Krishna says about vibhuti of God in shalok 10/21 that in aditi (a+diti= which can not be broken in pieces). I am Vishnu. Vishlri vyaptau Vishnu it means omnipresent (sarvavyapak) and in jyoti I am sun etc., etc.,i.e., greatest position of the world which all are within God. So non-alive surya, moon etc., are not God, God is within them.

Ram Suri: It means that Lord is referring to the soul of Surya dev. Why is the soul equated with divine here? Why not the physical body of Surya dev is compared with divine? Because the physical body of Surya dev or for that matter any other physical body is also subjected to destruction one day or other. Therefore, divine has to be equated with a nonperishable thing, which is soul.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please study Yajurveda chapter 31 and mandal 10 of Rigveda who say that God created sun,moon etc., from non-alive prakriti. So the Yogeshwar Krishna did tell about the soul of surya/sun. Physical body of surya has been compared that God is in surya and in the universe if anybody compared about lights so the main light of world is non alive sun made by God from prakriti. Otherwise there is no other comparison of God.

Ram Suri: Now, when some one says that every thing is divine, this statement should be understood with respect to the soul, not with respective to the physical body.
Swami Ram Swarup: Totally wrong and being against the Vedas please.

Ram Suri: With this perception if you see the world, then every thing in the universe is divine (it is very difficult initially).
Swami Ram Swarup: When your soul feels it is difficult that is why Vedas say it is impossible.

Ram Suri: This makes sense also according to Gita in 9/4, where Lord Krishna says that he (divine), in un-manifest form, is present everywhere in the universe.
Swami Ram Swarup: Yajurveda mantra 40/6 says that the whole world (universe) is within God and within universe the God is omnipresent. So based on this truth Yogeshwar Krishna says that the whole world is within me. Yog shashtra sutra 1/26 clarifies that almighty God is the first Guru of our four Rishis at the time of creation. Shri Krishna with Sudama studied Vedas and yoga in Gurukul of Sandeepan Rishi and Geeta is the preach of Vedas.

Ram Suri: Therefore, to a jeevan mukta’s eyes, every thing looks divine.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. He realises God within him and he knows about non-alive prakriti and souls too.

Ram Suri: For other people eyes, everything looks different, and hence they fail to see divine presence everywhere.
Swami Ram Swarup: Everywhere means everything is there wherein God is present. If everywhere is not there then where the God will be present and how God will be calledomnipresent.

Ram Suri: In other words, a jeevan mukta sees divine everywhere with his gyan eye, where as ignorant people tries to see divine through their mortal eyes.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please being against the Vedas. What is gyan eye when jeevan mukt has left his body here.

Ram Suri: And fails to see divine every where. That is why a jeevan mukta is called a jeevan mukta, while others are called ignorant. Now, you analyze the above mantra “EKO .. ASTI” with respective to this background, and contemplate if anything is wrong when advaitins say that everything is divine.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please as stated above. I again say if everything is God then God is not omnipresent which is impossible please.

Ram Suri: If you go little further, shastras also say that the world is illusion, and is nothing but projection of mind.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. It is against the Vedas.

Ram Suri: If you take the literal meaning of this sentence, then once again you will misunderstand it. One should know under what context this statement is made. This world (prakruti) changes every second, every minute, every hour, and every day.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. Four Vedas says that prakriti is unchangeable, Rigveda mandal 10 and Samkhya sutra 1/26 refers and in Samkhya sutra 1/18 prakriti is toldunder control of God. So God is separate and prakriti is separate.

Ram Suri: Since divine is changeless, this world cannot be said to be divine. Hence this world is illusion, and impermanent, and it exists to those people so long astheir mind has the control over them.
Swami Ram Swarup: When you accepts the existence of world so the God is separate from world. And you are here also saying that world is illusion and impermanent whereas God does not have these qualities.

Ram Suri: In Maitreya Upanishad, mantra 1.9 says that “Chitta meva he samsara .”, meaning that mind is the cause of this samsar.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 mantra three the word has been created by God from prakriti and mind and chitta is the creation of the prakriti as also said by Kapil Muni in his Samkhya sutra 1/26. So it is against the Vedas and not acceptable.

Ram Suri: Similarly, Lord Krishna, at the beginning of conversation with Uddhav in Uddhava Gita..
Swami Ram Swarup: Uddav Geeta is not accepted please only Bhagwat Geeta is accepted written by Rishi Vyas, philosopher of Vedas and yoga. To My surprise recently I heard from a T.V. saint that yogeshwar Krishna was a slave of ladies and by this way he was inspiring people to worship Shri Krishna. What a wonder, which is not acceptable please. So everybody is free in this country to say anythinh against Rishi,Munis,Vedas,yajna and Yoga being secular country, neither God nor the philosopher of Vedas will ever accept being against the Vedas,the final proof.

Ram Suri: Uddhava Gita said that understanding of this world or anything by mind etc is nothing but figment of imagination (Yadhidam manada vacha .. maya manomayam, 2.7). This means that the world when viewed by mind is nothing but illusion. Except jeevan mukta, all remaining people are dominated by mind, and hence everything is understood and processed by mind and buddi, and makes him to think that he is doing. Therefore for such people, the world exists. In case of jeevan mukta, as he experienced the divine, and as the mind is under his control, he understands that he is not the doer but only a witness for all actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please being against the Vedas. Rigveda mantra 1/164/20 clarifies (DWA SUPARNA SAKHAYA SAYUJA SAMANM VRIKSHE—-) that there are three — 1. body made by prakriti LIKE TREE ( destroyable) 2. Soul and 3. God. Soul face the result of karmas in body and does new karmas also whereas God is looking the deeds of the soul. So God is witness not the soul. We have a proof for this statement also in Gita (5/13).

Ram Suri: If we have faith in Lord Krishna and his teachings, then we do not need any more proofs to show that everything in this world is illusion and divine alone is true.
Swami Ram Swarup: Shri Krishna say in bhagwat Geeta 3/15 that all karmas are originated from Vedas and Vedas originated from Almighty God. And in 13/4 chapter that all this knowledge is in the Vedas and Rishis have already told from Vedas i.e., Shri Krishna is giving knowledge from Vedas too. It is good if we love our children but it is bad if do not remember our parents, so every ancient holy books are based on Vedas therefore we must first remember and love Vedas thereafter others are respectable too. Due to lack of this truth our country of Rishis of Shri Rama and shri Krishna which was a golden bird and Guru of whole world (vishwa Guru) has become ruined.

Ram Suri: When the mind is controlling us, then the world exists.
Swami Ram Swarup: Us and mind are separate please, you agree here. So controlling power on both i.e., God is separate. (us= souls, mind = made of prakriti as quoted above).

Ram Suri: However, if this mind is controlled very well, then the world ceases to exist. Example is jeevan mukta. For him, the mind is well under his control, and since he has experienced the divine, he understood his divine nature, and hence for him, the world ceases to exist. Some of the following quotes are taken from Tejo Bindu Upanishad (6.77 to 98) to show to whom the world exists:
Swami Ram Swarup: Please see above.

Ram Suri: The world exists for those people who are bitten by a rope that is assumed to be a snake.
Swami Ram Swarup: Snake exist in the world and rope too and both are different in qualities. Why an elephant is not seemed in rope because the shape does not tally with the rope. So we cannot say that we have not seen body of snake or rope earlier. These exists. Secondly the man who is misleaded and seeing the snake in the rope is God fundamentally in accoradance with present adaitvad. If he is God then why he is misled? If someone say that for sometime that maya has attacked on God and God has become jeevtama temporarily then it is again wrong because Yajurveda manbtra 40/8 say that God is beyond illusion and God is the purest (SHUDHAM APAAP VIDHAM) .

Ram Suri: Who tries to light the lamp with the help of a drawing picture of a candle.
Swami Ram Swarup: From where candle came? Candle was made and match box was made previously in the world and the artist made the picture of candle and thus if in the darkness in the night ,light is required from candle it will be purchased and match box alos be purchased and light will be obtained from candle.

Ram Suri: If one is able to tie a rough elephant with the help of hair of a tortoise.
Swami Ram Swarup: I think there is nobody on the earth to do such task of ignorance. Only a clever elephant master look after a elephant such a big animal.

Ram Suri: If fire is cold by touch..
Swami Ram Swarup: Nature can not be changed. So the nature (qualties ) of God, prakriti and souls’ are unchangeable. If fire is cold by touch then only in case of mad. Otherwise who can change the nature of fire?

Ram Suri: If a mosquito wins a fight against a lion..
Swami Ram Swarup: Naturally not but only possible in dreams and in case of mad. But not in case of learned.

Ram Suri: If heat fried seeds germinate..
Swami Ram Swarup: Usually not (but I must astonish on all above examples which are not even near to the vast subject of God, prakriti and souls. Because all false statements have been told by Samkhya Muni to tell only due to impression on Chitta in his sutra 1/23. But of no use at any cost. As about seed please study Samkhya sutra 1/10 and 11.)

Ram Suri: The incidents in the above examples cannot happen,
Swami Ram Swarup: The above examples are of no use in this matter please as said by Samkhya sutra 1/23.

Ram Suri: And hence this Upanishad says that world is illusion. For a jeevan mukta, the world ceases to exist, as his mind is well under his control, and hence he sees divine everywhere.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here what is world, mind,what is illusion and who is jeevanmukta. Are all these are one?

Ram Suri: If the world ceases to exist to a jeevan mukta then, what is left behind for him? It is the divine that is present everywhere for him. For other ordinary people also, divine is present everywhere, but they are lack of gyan eye to see. The conclusion is that when advaitins say that the world is maya and divine alone exist, it is based upon this experience of the shastras and divine. Therefore, whatever advaitins say in this regard, it is consistent with Upanishads, Gita and other scriptures, and hence they are correct. The rope and snake analogy is not something first said by advaitins. It is found in some Upanishads also. For example, the above Upanishad also uses this example. When Upanishads compares something with rope and snake, it should be taken as true, unless one does not believe in Upanishads, which are a part of Vedas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Upnishads are not part of Vedas. First upnishads are written by Rishis who took birth and Vedas are the direct knowledge from Almighty God who is beyond death and birth. However Rishis studied Vedas and based on the knowledge of the Vedas they wrote 11 upnishads.

Ram Suri: Now we will see under what context, this analogy is applied. We need to analyze it closely about the truth in this analogy. Whenever we see some materialistic thing, the eye sees first, and gives the information to mind..
Swami Ram Swarup: Eye never see being non alive. And mind cannot take information being non alive also both does work when soul is there in the body because dead body has organs but of no use.

Ram Suri: ..which in turn gives it to buddi. It is the buddi that takes a decision. That means this buddi gives the judgment to misunderstand the rope to a snake. Up to this point (from karma indriyas to buddi), prakruti is the responsible, but not the divine.
Swami Ram Swarup: Jeevatma is responsible being alive not God not prakriti.

Ram Suri: In other words, vikaras and gunas arise from prakruti (13/20 Gita)..
Swami Ram Swarup: In this shalok karya and karan are mentioned. According to Vedas and shatras karan is prakriti being unchageable and when prakriti is used by God for creation then sun ,moon bodies etc., are its karya. This is called maya. Which is said in 13/19.And also told that jeevtma and prakriti are eternal. Prakriti is non-alive and his vikaar and gunas cannot attack to anybody else. Suppose how a sword without any warrior will attack on enemy? This is only jeevtma who is alive and attracts towards vikaar and guna of prakriti.

Ram Suri: and faced by the physical body that is associated with senses, karma etc (13/21 & 22 Gita)…
Swami Ram Swarup: As stated above.

Ram Suri: ceases to exist, as his mind is well under his control, and hence he sees divine everywhere.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here what is world, mind,what is illusion and who is jeevanmukta. Are all these are one?

Ram Suri: If buddi is entangled with bad type of karma, it gives judgments to do bad actions. It means, due to ignorance, the doer ship of all actions is identified by the soul.
Swami Ram Swarup: Soul is provided with the budhhi, chitta and body etc., to face the previous birth karmas as mentioned in Rigveda mantra 10/135/1. So the result of karma is awarded to soul (jeevtma being alive and eternal and not to budhhi or mind etc., being non-alive. Suppose a man murders with sword then sword is not punished being non-alive ,the man is punished.

Ram Suri: The consequence of these vikaras and gunas is that they will hold the soul in the body (that is, birth after birth, 14/5 Gita).
Swami Ram Swarup: And rebirth is according to karmas. In this shalok i.e., 14/5 Shri krishna says that three gunas of prakriti holds the soul i.e., this body, mind etc.,is made of three gunas of prakriti and alive soul resides in this body.

Ram Suri: The meaning of all these things is that the divine quality of soul is covered by untrue assumptions of prakruti, as said in Chandogya Upanishad, 8.3.1.
Swami Ram Swarup: Soul is soul. There is no mention of any divine soul in Vedas. As said above the soul resides in untrue body. But untrue wishes (kaam, krodh, mad etc.,) are of alive soul and not of prakriti and prakriti’s gunas being non-alive and the upnishad says that from these untrue wishes the true wishes i.e., to worship, to do pious deeds, to do yajna, to study Vedas, to do hard working, to discharge duties according to Vedas have been covered. So Kath upnishad also says that there are two ways— “shreyah ch preyah”, meanstrue and untrue and soul according to Yajurveda mantra 7/48 is free to do good or bad, true or untrue, but result will be awarded by God in shape of pious or sin. It is Vedic philosophy and cannot be changed as said in Yajurveda mantra 1/5, in which ANRIT (FALSE) AND SATYA (TRUE) BOTH WORDS ARE MENTIONED and taking in Chhandogya Upnishad said by you from this Veda mantra. Upnishads are from Vedas but Vedas are not from upnishad or any other holy book as God is the first Guru of the universe as said in Yog shahstra of Patanjali Rishi in sutra 1/26. We must follow the preach of Vedas of our eternal Guru Almighty God.

Ram Suri: Then, the question is where is the place of divine in the above rope and snake example? Beyond buddi, divine is present, in the form of soul (soul = divine, 10/20 Gita) in everyone’s heart.
Swami Ram Swarup: As I already told in reply to your one question that Yask Muni says in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth — “YASYA ATMA SHARIRAM” YASYA= GOD’S MEANS THE SOUL IS THE BODY OF GOD. IT MEANS GOD IS WITHIN THE SOUL. GEETA 10/20 says similar truth as of Yask muni.

Ram Suri: This soul is not responsible for the judgment of the buddi. In reality, soul is only a witness to all actions. But, due to ignorance coming out of trigunas, which are prakrutic in nature, it identifies to physical body as self, and thus takes of fruits of all actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: Soul is responsible being alive. God is witness as told above vide Rigveda mantra 1/164/20 and not soul. Some saints of now a days say that Vedas are like mango tree and katha is the fruit of mango tree i.e., mango. They say we must get mango and what is the benefit to talk about mango tree. This is direct insult of God and Vedas. God in Atharvaveda mantra 10/8/32 says — PASHYA DEVSYA KAVYAM NA MAMAAR NAJIRYATI” i.e., study the Vedas which are immotral and can never be made old i.e., Vedas are evergreen. This is deep and lengthy philosophy which I cannot explain here more. I.e., soul takes fruits as I explained above vide Yajurveda mantra 7/48, even in ignorance/foolishness due to indulgment or attraction towards prakriti’s gunas.

Ram Suri: In case of jeevan mukta, this self is experienced, and thus he understands that he is not the doer of the actions, but a witness to the actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: The jeevan mukta is free by all karmas i.e., he has to face no karmas that is why he has got final liberation. But the jeevan mukta knows that he is not body, he is soul and he realises God within him. So no matter of seeing the karmas by soul of jeevan mukta because he has nothing to do with the karmas. Witness of the karmas is still God of all souls because HE has to award the result of karmas. Soul does not award anyresult of karmas to any soul. Soul is not empowered to do this. Only God is empowered.

Ram Suri: Therefore, your argument how the soul, if it is a divine, has misunderstood the rope being a snake, cannot have a stand here and thus cannot come into the picture at all.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have already explained above.

Ram Suri: Because, here, the soul is not taking any decision whether the rope is a snake or vice versa. The decision is taken by the buddi, which is lower than soul.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have already explained above that budhhi being non-alive and first result of creation from non alive prakriti vide Rigved mandal 10 sukta 129 quoted above, cannot take decision. A brick or stone or our body, which is made of prakriti, how can take decision being non-alive?

Ram Suri: When this is the ground reality, then where is the question of divine being captured by maya.
Swami Ram Swarup: You have already said above that soul has been covered by prakriti etc. If divine (God) as per adaitvad is not captured by maya then the man who is looking towards rope why is misled and is seeing rope as a snake? When there is nothing except God then rope, snake and the man who is looking towards rope all are God and there must be no question of misunderstanding.

Ram Suri: On the other hand, it is certainly the trick of maya for not having properly understood of this analogy and the context. And who has to say authoritatively that Vedas accept something or not?
Swami Ram Swarup: The person who has studied all the Vedas is empowered to say otherwise what is the use of Vedas. Why the Vedas knowledge given by God. In Yajurvedamantra 40/8 it is said that— YATHA TATYATHAH SMABHAYAH ARTHAN VYADADHAT means— the God preaches to the public the knowledge of all matters through Vedas and not by other means. That is why God is our first Guru as per Yog Shahstra sutra 1/26.

Ram Suri: If some one misunderstands the Vedas, or Upanishads or other scriptures, then do we need to accept their claims?
Swami Ram Swarup: No please, because he talks about the Vedas but he has neither seen the Vedas nor studied otherwise like Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, Vyas Muni etc., who studied the Vedas the person could start doing holy yajna, ashtang yoga and brahamcharya etc. that is why Guru Nanak says– VED KATEV KAHO MAT JHOOTHE, JHOOTHA SO JO NA VICHARE. I.e., he is the liar who does not study Vedas properly. Tulsi also says in Uttrakand— SHRUTI VIRODH RAT SAB NAR-NARI, i.e., in kalyug every man and woman are against the Vedas. Again — DWIJ SHRUTI BECHAK i.e., Gurus have sold the Vedas etc., etc. Manusmriti shalok 2/168 ( YO ANDHITYA DWIJAH VEDAM ANYATR KURUTE SHRMAM—-SHUDRTWAM GACHHATI) says for those who does not study Vedas.

Ram Suri: Swamiji, please contemplate over it.
Swami Ram Swarup: Done as above please.

Swamiji’s previous reply: I did not say that sun, moon, bodies etc., are prakriti but I told that these are made of prakriti. At the time of mahapralay these sun, moon, etc., i.e., whole creation is merged in prakriti i.e., take the shape of prakriti and Prakriti is eternal like God and souls. Mud is one matter but pots made from mud take another shape. So sun, moon etc., are made from prakriti but not these are not prakriti. Hence, the tretvad. So I do not, even did not agree that sun, moon etc., are prakriti as you stressed above in your present question.

Ram Suri present response: You have said that the physical bodies are made from prakruti, and that they are not called prakruti. Can we say that once the physical bodies are created or made from prakruti, they no longer be called prakruti?
Swami Ram Swarup: Yes please we can say. Similarly if a pot is made from mud, though it is made of mud but it will not be told that the pot is mud. So prakriti is unchangeable as said in Samkhya shashtra sutra 1/26 but when it is used by God for creation then from prakriti’s three gunas the creation like sun, moon, bodies are made. But sun, moon and bodies are not called prakriti but made of prakriti.

Ram Suri: For example, we take the same example that you have quoted in your reply. You quoted mud and pot example. This analogy is found in Chandogya Upanishad, 5.1.4. Suppose I make a pot from the mud. Can I say now that the pot is not mud? The mud in this case is modified or transformed into a pot, but it does not means that the pot is not mud. Similarly, when the physical bodies are made or created from prakruti, they still represent the prakruti. Nevertheless, the prakruti is modified into physical bodies.
Swami Ram Swarup: Already replied above. If pot is mud then nobody will use pot for food etc. In Chhandogya upnishad shalok quoted by you there is no mention of mudplease.

Ram Suri: But it does not mean that the physical bodies are not prakruti. The bodies are prakruti, and due to that very reason, they are able to dissolve in prakruti after the death, like similar things mix together.

Swami Ram Swarup: What is dissolved in prakriti – body, organs etc., or prakriti means how prakriti is dissolved in prakriti.

Ram Suri: The conclusion is that even though the physical bodies are made of prakruti, they are still called prakruti, because they are representing the prakruti.
Swami Ram Swarup: An ambassador of a nation goes to the President of another nation, the ambassador of the first nation is a rep., of the President of the nation but cannotbe a President. Prakriti is unchanged but creation is changeable that is why Kapil Muni in sutra 1/26 says Raj, Tam and Satv Samya Awastha Prakritihi. Prakriti is karan and creation is its karya. Whereas there is no karan or karya of God and souls.

Ram Suri: Thus, the bodies finally merge in prakruti, like a spoon of water dissolves in a glass of water.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. Body is merged in prakriti but not like water. Because spoon water is a quantitiy of same water where it is to be merged, whereas body made of prakriti does not have the quality of prakriti being the karya of prakriti.

Ram Suri: In nutshell, it is like this. The physical bodies go into prakruti after death, and the liberated souls go into divine for absolute salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: Explained above please.

Ram Suri: If the souls are unable to merge in divine, it means that the souls are associated with bondage or karma, and needs to annihilate the karma.
Swami Ram Swarup: As stated in Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 and 130 that soul, prakriti and God are separate from each other by qualities too. So soul cannot be merged inGod to be a God.

Ram Suri: For this purpose, they will take birth and come into this world. This is the essence of all spiritual books, and this is what advaita also teaches.

Swamiji’s previous reply: I could not understand that what do you mean by Divine. If you consider its meaning God or like God then the answer will be changed because sun, moon are made from Prakriti and prakriti is non alive matter like mud and the matters are destroyed one day and cannot be God because God is immortal.

Ram Suri present response: Divine is called Bhagawan, while God is called Dev.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote the differences between Bhagwan and Dev.

Ram Suri: Gods are many, like Indra Dev, Vayu Dev, Varun Dev, Agni Dev, Surya Dev, Chandra Dev etc. But divine is only one, without a second.
Swami Ram Swarup: Indra Dev etc., are goddesses as per Purann but as per Vedas there is only one Almighty God who creates,nurses and destroy the universe as mentionedin 31 chapter of Yajurveda,Saamveda mantra 617 and ahead in Atharvaveda kand 19 and in Rigveda mandal 10.

Ram Suri: With respective this information, the above statement, “Eko ..”, the word ‘Braham’ should be understood as divine, not as god(s). The question is why many gods are present? In order to perform various jobs in the universe, different gods are required.
Swami Ram Swarup: As per the mantras of four Vedas quoted above God is Almighty and independent and thus needs no assistant please.

Ram Suri: Now, please do not emphasize that such gods do not exist, or divine does not need any assistance from Gods, or Vedas do not say the existence of such gods or lokas. I love and respect Vedas a lot. Gita acknowledges the existence of various lokas and gods in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Vedas tells about 33 nonalive devas as I explained giving the references of talk between Gargi and Rishi Yagvalkya and five alive devas i.e., MATRI DEVO BHAVA, PITRI DEVO BHAVA, ATHITHI DEVO BHAVA, ACHARYO DEVO BHAVA AND FIFTH IS MAHADEV (SAAMVEDA MANTRA 276 ALSO REFERS) I.E., ALMIGHTY GOD.

Ram Suri: These are altogether present in different time and space dimensions. For example, in Gita (2/37)..
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE HERE ONLY, According tokarmas. One side you please accept only one God and on the other side you say about so many Gods. If there is only one God as Vedas say then the God is Almighty and needs no assistance of Gods to create, nurses and destroy the universe.

Ram Suri: Lord Krishna says to Arjun, “If you die in the battle, you will go to heaven and enjoy there”. “On the other hand, if you win the battle, you will enjoy the kingdom on the earth when living” It means that if Arjun dies in the battle, then Lord Krishna says that Arjun would go to a place called heaven and enjoys there.Now, if heaven does not exist really, then why Lord Krishna would say about it. Is he trying to fool Arjun? No. Some people, without thinking much, argue that both heaven and hell exist on the earth only, andthey simple dismiss the existence of such invisible lokas in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Shri Krishna as told by Vyas Muni in Mahabharta, studied four Vedas,did unlimited holy Yajna and practise ashtang Yoga. Similarly in the case of Vyas Muni. So Geeta is a preach of Vedas and written by Vyas Muni and those who have not studied Sanskrit Grammar and four Vedas and have not practised ashtang yoga with Brahamcharya, for those Rigveda mantra 1/164/16 says ,” NA CHIKET ANDHSAH” i.e., he is not able to understand Vedas or the preach of Vedas. Therefore the meaning of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh. Please study all Vedas with Grammar. To understand Geeta, a Rishi like Vyas and Yogeshwar like Krishna philospher of Vedas and ashtang yoga is needed and not else. I have also written comments on Geeta based on Vedas and yoga philosophy,and is available for study.

Ram Suri: If they really exist on the earth itself, or if they do not exist at all anywhere else also, then why Lord Krishna would say, ” If you die in the battle field you will attain heaven and enjoy there .”.
Swami Ram Swarup: These words of Shri Krishna are from Vedas, especially SAAMVEDA mantra 1409. Tenth chapter (Geeta) of Vibhuti is based on knowledge from Rigveda 9/96/6, Saamveda mantra 944 that is why Shri Krishna says ,”VEDANAAM SAAMVEDAHA ASMI” and this lok too is based on knowledge of four Vedas. The fundamental is this that untill and unless knowledge is not given by anybody else, it cannot be attained. So when the previous universe met with pralaya, then at the time of present creation mentioned in every Vedas there was no spiritual master alive. Then every person was ignorant and lack of any kind of knowledge. So who gave the knowledge at that time to the human beings? Yajurveda mantra 31/7 and mandal 10 of Rigveda and several mantras of Atharvaveda and Saamveda say that God Himself being Almighty by his power originated the knowledge of four Vedas in the heart of four Rishis of unsexual creation. That is why Rishi Patanjali says in yog shahstra sutra 1/26 that the Almighty God is the first Guru of the Four Rishis, thereafter Rishis have been our Gurus as yet knowing Vedas. The people who still live in densy jungle and have no contact with the world is still ignorant. Because of the fact that nobody has yet given them knowledge that how to cook, wear clothes, make houses, electricity, science, etc., etc. a new born baby if kept in densy cave with all facility but without talking and without giving knowledge he will still remain ignorant and foolish. So God is our first Guru and we must follow his path of Vedas and thereafter we must study all spiritual books. Because only then the spiritual books will tell us truth. Now anybody else who even is not equivalent to the smallest atom of mud of the feet of Shri Krishna or Vyas Muni he starts saying about the deepest and golden spiritual holy book Bhagwat Geeta and others. Actually they used to tell the people while reading comments in Hindi or somehow in English of those to whom I have said latter. I have read comments on so many Geeta of the present saints and in one of them I read about Geeta shalok 4/29 where the famous saint says in his comments in Hindi in Geeta that Shri Krishna is giving here the knowledge of pranayaam. He describes that a yogi attains sidhi from pranayaam whereas original shalok 4/29, 30,31says about final liberation through pranayaam. Further the saint shows in his book that pranayaam is needed not, you will control your five senses,organs and mind if you worship only Shri Krishna. Please see that these wording of the saint does not appear in the original shalokas. Similarly in shalok 4/28 some explanation of Yajna have been mentioned by Shri Krishna and Yask Muni also says that “YAJAU VAI SHREASHTAMAM KARMAH” by which God is realised, but this saint in his comments says that God cannot berealised by any of the yajna mentioned in shalok4/28. How wonder is this? So most of the pepole read the comments of the saints in Hindi or English of the shalokas but physcologically they determine that they are studying Geeta. Hence the ignorance.

Ram Suri: Once the body dies, then where is the question of enjoying anything on earth if there is no heaven.
Swami Ram Swarup: Enjoyment is always gained by soul with the help of body. As per Vedas one takes birth in house of a king or the richest or in minister’s house etc., thisis his swarg based on previous pious deeds and he should again continue worship and pious deeds to realise God otherwise his swarg time will be finished like bankrupt and he will have to face the consequences under the Vedic law by God. Second one takes birth in a lowest and poorest house, where thousands of problems, illness, quarrels etc., are faced, this is his narak. Salvation is another stage apart from swarg and narak. And is also enjoyed by the soul through suksham sharir.

Ram Suri: When Lord Krishna says, “you will enjoy after death”, it means there is a place for soul to enjoy (although it is not recommended to aim for it in spiritualism).
Swami Ram Swarup: After death rebirth is there, otherwise salvation is there.

Ram Suri: This place is called heaven. For a person who does not believe these things, he will have any number of excuses.
Swami Ram Swarup: Believe and unbelieve matters and based on the decision of Vedas vide Yoga Shashtra sutra 1/7 please. Own views are not required in this matter. That is why Saam veda mantra 944 says ” KAVINAAM PADVI” i.e., God make Rishi to utter preach. I.e., the preach of Vedas though is from the mouth of a acharya but within acharya the God is making the sentences (pad). So own views are not required.

Ram Suri: In Gita, many instances are quoted to confirm the existence of different gods and lokas. For example, 8/16 clearly indicates the existence of various lokas, the highest lok being the Brahma lok in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Geeta shalok 8/16 is based on the knowledge of Yajurveda mantra 31/3 wherein it is mentioned that from one part (padah) of the God the universe is created having three lokas which are destroyed but above all three padah purushah (God) amritam divi i.e., immortal and above three lokas.

Ram Suri: A guess can be made here what would be the immediate reaction from people who do not believe the existence of other lokas regarding to this statement. They simply say, “well! this Brahma Lok is nothing but our earth”.
Swami Ram Swarup: Braham lok means where Braham lives according to Yajurveda mantra 40/1. It is said,”ISHAWASYAM IDAM SARVAM YAT KINCH JAGATTYAAM JAGAT” here two jagats are there.1. JAR JAGAT (THREE LOKAS) 2. Chetan jagat (souls) the God lives in these jagats, so these are Braham loka.

Ram Suri: If it is so, then why would Lord Krishna say that who so ever understands 1000 yugas as a day and another 1000 yugas as a night for Lord Brahma would understand the real meaning of day and night (8/17).
Swami Ram Swarup: It is in accordance with Rigveda mandal 10, Manu smriti 1/64 to 75, please relating to creation and counting of duration of the earth only.

Ram Suri: For the people of earth, 1000 yugas time period cannot be equal either to a day or a night. Therefore, these slokas clearly point out the existence of various lokas in space. The time period mentioned above refers to Brahma Lok. Similarly, Gita 9/20 confirms the existence of Indra Lok, while 9/21 confirms the existence of heaven.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas swarg lok/indra lok is the place where every facility of merriment from organs and perceptions are available on the earth. Secondly is the meriment of moksh after total liberation (swarg).

Ram Suri: Again, if some one says that this heaven is nothing but earth, then, in the same sloka, the term ‘mrutyu lok’ is said, meaning the mortal world – earth or similar planet. This indicates that heaven mentioned in this sloka is not earth, but a different lok in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Mrityu lok means where death and birth are always there i.e., prithivi lok. This prithivi lok swarg for those who are pious but have not yet attined final liberation and narak for those who does sins and remains worried always with unlimited problems.

Ram Suri: In 9/25, Lord Krishna says that whoso ever worships gods, or petrus or bhutas would attain corresponding lokas temporarily, and adds that who so ever worships him (divine) will attain him permanently. Actually, this sloka clarifies three important points: The existence of various lokas in space (like gods, petru or bhuth)..
Swami Ram Swarup: There is no mention about bhoot, pret in the Vedas. In Yajurveda mantra 40/3 PTRETYA word is there which means after death and not bhoot, pret. Please see when jeevtma comes out of body the body is burnt. You say that the soul is God yet the God can not be a bhoot, pret. But Vedas do not say that soul is God. In chapter 39 of Yajurveda mantra 6 this soul after leaving the body goes to savita (surya), agnihi, vaayu, aaditya, chandrma, rituhu, marutah, brihaspatihi, mitrah, varunah, indrah, (vidyut) and vishwedevah (supreme qualities). Afterwards the soul comes down on the earth in the vegetables,water etc., to the place where he has to take the next body according to karmas. Accordingly the male by means of water, food etc., takes and soul goes and thereafter take birth through husband and wife. While remaining in the space in surya etc., the soul is controlled by sutratma vaayu and remains unconscious. So no time is left to be bhoot.

Ram Suri: Lord Krishna (divine) is superior than gods..
Swami Ram Swarup: Then who was superior before Shri Krishna i.e., before the birth of Shri Krishna as you said? However about your above saying you have not mentioned anyVedas mantra as proof. Please quote.

Ram Suri: Attainment of god’s lokas is temporary (as per first part of 8/16 sloka), while attainment of divine is permanent (as per second part of 8/16 sloka).
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote Veda mantra as a proof. Yajurveda mantra 32/1 says AGNI ADITYA VAAYU CHANDRMA SHUKRAM AAPAH AND BRAHAM ARE also the name of one God according to qualities.

Ram Suri: Similarly, one can find many references in the 11th chapter of Gita to confirm the existence of many lokas and gods. But the problem is that we never believe in Gita, which is the essence of Upanishads..
Swami Ram Swarup: As I already told that Geeta is based on the knowledge of four Vedas and Geeta is true. But the contents of the Geeta can be known only after studying the Vedas.

Ram Suri: Nor do we try to understand Gita or any other divine scriptures correctly. Coming to the point of difference between divine and gods, in Gita when ever, Lord Krishna talks to Arjun, it is referred by saying ‘Bhagawan uvacha’. On the other hand, when Arjun says or Sanjay says, or Dhrutarastra says something, then Gita says respective person’s uvacha. If both divine and god imply the same meaning, then Gita should have said ‘dev vuacha’ at least sometimes. Instead, all the times, it says ‘bhagawan vuacha’. Bhagawan Vyasji knows the difference between divine and gods, and hence selectively used the word ‘bhagawan vuacha’ in Gita. It means that divine is ultimate, and hence Divine is Bhagawan, while God is referred as Dev. Gods are many, like Indra Dev, Vayu Dev, Varun Dev, Agni Dev, Surya Dev, Chandra Dev etc. But divine is only one, without a second. Spirituality is concerned with divine, not with God(s), nor with prakruti. Scriptures always say that one has to worship and experience the divine. They never say to worship, experience and attain to gods or prakruti for salvation, as they are inferior to divine. It is some thing like this. If we know a person who knows every thing, then we know every thing. Similarly, if we worship divine who knows everything, then we will become divine by attaining divine. On the other hand, if we worship gods, we may utmost achieve to become another god, and this is nota permanent position. After sometime, it will be lost. If some one does not want to loose any position, then the only way for him is to attain divine. Hence all scriptures lay emphasis to worship and experience divine, but not gods or prakruti. This, however, does not mean that we are insulting gods or prakruti. We respect them very well. But our aim is always fixed on divine, while discharging our duties, as Lord Krishna says in Gita, “Tasmat sarvesu kalesu – 8/7.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote any Veda mantra.

Swamiji’s previous reply: So from prakriti, God creates universe. Souls take bodies. If there is only one God and there is no prakriti and no souls or souls and prakriti are God then how God is omnipresent and to whom God is commanding?

Ram Suri present response: I agree that divine creates universe from prakruti. The liberated souls will not take any birth. Commanding? Swamiji! Why do you think that divine wants to command any living beings? Do you think that divine commands some one to do a particular work, while he commands others not to do a particular thing?
Swami Ram Swarup: Divine (Almighty God ) does not want anything from human being or prakriti. God has no sankalp,vikalp, that is why he is God. But soul has sankalp and vikalp. In Vedas swarg means moksh. Commands means he controls the universe automatically without desire. Shevtashwaro Upnishad 6/8 refers.

Ram Suri: Divine never commands any one to do any thing. Do we have any proof for this statement? Yes. In Gita (5/14), Lord Krishna says that he does not give activities for people to do, or does not induce people to do actions nor does he create the fruits of people’s action. From this it is clear that divine never commands anyone. Then the question is that what divine does at all? Whenever there is decline in dharma in the world, he takes a form and establishes dharma. So that people can follow it. But he never commands any particular person to do any thing. But in a general way, divine tells people to do good activities through the scriptures. It is up to the people to follow them or not.
Swami Ram Swarup: As told above in Vedas God commands on universe otherwise the pious deeds of a man will be used by a sinner and sins will have to be used by a pious man but Rigveda says SHANNO MITRAH SHANNO VARUNAH SHAM ARYAMA. Here ARYMA means Supreme judge controlling and giving result of karmas of all human beingsautomatically.

Ram Suri: Divine never forces or commands anyone to do anything. This itself is an indication that we all have the free will. If one does good things, he will attain salvation. If not, he will go down in the ladder of evolution. For both these actions, divine is not responsible. Therefore, the question ‘to whom divine would be commanding’, as you have said above, will never arise at all.
Swamiji’s previous reply: If we say that for sometime God has been captured by illusion then again it is wrong due to the purest qualities of God mentioned in all Vedas and also said YajurVeda mantra 40/8 i.e., shukRam, akaya, shudham, apapvidham, samabhyahah,yatha tathyatah, arthan i.e., God is almighty and needs no assistance to create and command on prakriti and souls, God is bodiless, purest and there may be no any kind of illusion etc., in God or on God. God cannot do any sin and injustice actually God does not face any result of any deeds (karmas) as also said in yoga shashtra suta 1/24 but soul bears, so the difference between God and soul, and at last it is said in this mantra that God in real position has given the knowledge of every matters, prakriti, souls of himself by giving the knowledge throughVedas.

Ram Suri present response: Swamiji! No one says that divine will be captured by maya. Not even advaitins say this. Now, this is what is called maya on the part of people who misunderstands the context of a particular mantra or scriptures.
Swami Ram Swarup: Already explained above in the case of rope and snake please.

Ram Suri: Lord Krishna says in Gita (13/22) that when the people are in association with materialistic nature of prakruti, then they will enjoy the fruits of actions (good or bad). Therefore, these people identify themselves with the physical body, and thus have the feeling that they are doing or performing the actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please clarify the meaning of people. Is this not soul please?

Ram Suri: This is the ignorance and illusion on the part of such people. In reality, they are souls.
Swami Ram Swarup: That is illusion is on souls. And not on Almighty God.

Ram Suri: If the feeling of doer ship is there, then there is bondage. This is absent in case of jeevan mukta, and hence he is liberated. Why he is liberated? Because, he has experienced that he is different from the physical body, and that he is not the doer of actions of the physical body (prakruti). He experienced that he is the pure soul. Therefore, such a person will not take birth again (13/24 Gita).
Swami Ram Swarup: Doer is soul being alive otherwise please quote reference of Vedas.

Ram Suri: Therefore, your belief that advaitins had said that ‘divine is captured by maya or illusion’ is not correct. They never said this. We all agree that divine has all the best superlative qualities. The 1/24 sutra of Yoga Shastra you quoted above talks about the soul that is bonded in karma and ignorance.
Swami Ram Swarup: This sutra does not talk about soul but talks about Almighty God. Please study yog shahstra commented by Vyas Muni.

Ram Suri: As a result, it has attained a physical body, and is suffering from klesha, that is avidya; karma, that is, actions that are devoid of doer ship feeling or bad actions. If we ask a question, that who will suffer from the kleshas, then the answer is that those persons who do not follow dharma or pious life. Therefore, the soul in this person of the above sutra is bonded in a physical body at one place, and thus is not free. The conclusion is that the above reference you quoted is talking about a conditioned soul, where mind is controlling everything, but the mind is not controlled.

Swami Ram Swarup: I again say please study Yog shahstra commented by Vyas Muni as sutra 1/24 is related from previous sutras and in this sutra PURUSHVISHESH i.e., Purush means Purnn Parmeshwar according to 31 chapter of Yajurveda also and 40/8 mantra of Yajurveda and all Vedas. And in sutra 1/24 of Yog Shahstra Vishesh means special or Supreme. And he is Almighty God.

Ram Suri: Up to this point, the difference between jeevatma and divine exists. This difference is only temporarily present so long as there is ignorance.
Swami Ram Swarup: This difference is permanent please as quoted above.

Ram Suri: Once, this difference is gone by experiencing the divine by performing intense sadhana under the guidance of a qualified spiritual master, then the soul dissolves in divine and becomes one with him. Swamiji! Please understand the difference in various statements and the context.

Swamiji’s previous reply: My explanation do not support advaitvad, but supports tretvad i.e., God, prakriti and souls according to Vedas.

Swami Ram Swarup: You yourself telling that soul has illusion etc., but temporarily otherwise soul is God in you world. Otherwise soul is soul and God is God.

Ram Suri present response: All Upanishads, Gita and other holy scriptures confirm the existence of Divine, prakruti, and souls. Even advaita philosophy also believes in them. The essence of all holy scriptures is concerned with spirituality. Advaita philosophy is also concerned with spiritualism, that is, to understand the true relationship between souls and divine. Advaita philosophy, in accordance to all Upanishads, says that there is only one divine, and all souls are also divine..
Swami Ram Swarup: Please clarify when there is one divine then how all souls are divine.

Ram Suri:..and hence these souls will merge in divine for absolute salvation. All scriptures emphasize that we all need to experience divine by performing spiritual sadhana under the guidance of a qualified guruji. Please understand that all scriptures say the sadhakasto experience the divine in them. They never say the sadhakas to experience prakruti (physical bodies) for the sake of attaining salvation. Why? Because, the physical bodies, sun, moon etc are prakruti, and will have end one day or other. This means that out of 3 thing

We were studying sutra 1/15 regarding asceticism. Here Patanjali Rishi says that “Anushravik Vishya” are pertaining to those, which took place in the past in respect of life of ancient Rishis/Munis. The merriments of next birth mentioned in Vedas, the next top class birth, full with every assets and enjoyment, over lasting pleasure of final liberation and the perfection of Yoga’s achievement. Vyas Muni says about this Vishyaya (subject) matters) becomes undesirous then this stage is called fully controlled asceticism of an aspirant. Let us learn about ‘Anushravik Vishaya’.

Our ancient Munis like Vyas, Agastya, Atri, Shringi, etc. attained the stage of ‘Asampragyat Samadhi’. Those Rishis were worshipped by the then kings, queens, their daughters, sons and even by the public. Rishis like Gargi, Yagyavalka, Shatananda and Vamdev, etc. used to live in the palace also. Yagyavalka Rishi had two wives and so many Rishis had even more. So the knowledge being given in the sutra is that if the aspirant or a saint of the present time starts quoting the said reference of the Rishis, Munis with the intention that they should also get the merriment in the same manner of the ancient Rishis then this thinking comes under ‘Anushravik Vishya’ and so-called saints/aspirants of the present time are wasting their lives and life of the public, being arrogant. We should also know here that in addition a present saint or aspirant are comparing them with the ancient Rishis who were having the complete knowledge of four Vedas and yoga philosophy in experience whereas the present saints/aspirants are very few who are so. In this asceticism, the materialistic merriment is also included. So, according this sutra, no saints or aspirants must collect the materialistic articles to become a true yogi. The next sutra tells about the supernatural asceticism:

Tata Parmam Purushkhya Ter Gun Vaitrishnayam (1/16)

(Tata) that (Param) is the highest asceticism which comes (Purushkhyatehe) after realizing the knowledge of God and the aspirant (Gunvaitrishnayam) becomes undesirous from the qualities of Prakriti.

Meaning = when the aspirant becomes ascetic, mentioned in the sutra 1/15 and he is even going to practise Ashtang Yoga, study of holy books like Veda, shastras, does auspicious deeds with full faith and without disturbances and break, then he gets the full knowledge about the Almighty God. Due to this effect of realizing Almighty God, he is detached with the qualities of Prakriti (i.e. Rajo, Tamo, Sato qualities). In the Yoga Shastra, this is called Parvairagya i.e. the highest stage of asceticism. Here a story of Mahabharata is remembered –

There was a king named Nahush. Once he prayed Rishi Chayvan to pay his visit to his palace. The king served the Rishi at his level best. But still the king could not make the Rishi happy. Even once the Rishi Chayvan left the palace without telling anybody else, for his Ashram. In the morning when the king and the queen came to know about the Rishi, they both followed the path to the Rishi’s Ashram. After a long distance they saw a very beautiful palace, full with all assets and all materialistic merriment, including sensuality, etc. For a second, king and queen were astonished but after looking every article of the palace and leaving it, they reached to Rishi Chayvan’s Ashram. They got down on the feet of Rishi and prayed to become happy with them and to shower blessings. When the Rishi pleased and showered blessings on them, then in a pleasant mood, the queen requested with folded hands to Rishi to tell about the enchanted palace in the jungle. Chayvan Rishi smiled and told that the enchanted palace was made by him with Yogic illusion for the king and his queen. Chayvan Rishi further added that he (Chavyan Rishi) thought that both, the king and his queen, will become entangled in the illusion of materialistic attractive articles and thus king and queen will be ruined. But Chayvan Rishi was surprised that neither king nor queen were entangled with the enchanted palace. After all, Rishi had too blessed king and the queen both. King requested the Rishi to make his family a Brahmin one. But in return the Rishi blessed that the king and his son will not be Brahmins, but his son’s son will first become Rajrishi and thereafter he will be turned as a Brahmin. And everybody knows that Rishi Vishwamitra was born in Kshatriya family and was a king. After sometime, he left for jungle, did the highest Ashtang Yoga practice, studied Vedas and became a Rishi. So this all was possible only de to asceticism of Rishi Vishwamitra’s forefathers. Here Vyas Muni comments on this sutra that whatever we see or hear, if we feel the faults/sins/damage about listening and hearing then we will be an ascetic. Actually what happens that the scene we see and the talk we listen gives us enjoyment of materialistic world and we always are indulged through eye, ear, skin, nose and tongue to see, listen, feel, smell and taste about the worldly affairs. Due to lack of Vedic preach or practice of Yoga philosophy, we do not realize the bad effects of all these listening and hearing and that is why we do not leave it. Instead we are indulged more and more in worldly affairs.

We must concentrate on the said great point of Vyas Muni that he is an ascetic who seeks fault/sins in listening and hearing on the materialistic subjects. Nowadays, cinema, TV, backbiting, etc. are the most dangerous activities, which are mostly based in worldly attraction. So one should carefully listen and hear on the matter of faith, truth, Vedas, shastras, Holy Books and even one should seek good or bad from the same. Even until and unless we do not continue practicing Ashtang Yoga and authenticated worship of God including listening of Vedas, Holy Books, etc. then it will be very difficult to determine that what is wrong and what is good. Even to realize the effect of shastra’s preach, it is very difficult to understand. In this sutra also an ascetic has been warned not to plan for pleasure even of the final liberation and enjoyment, whatever our ancient Rishis/Munis had gained and what to talk about materialistic merriment. So will have to realize that even listening the cassette of religious songs or stories to define religion will not meet with success in the matter of truth/worship/control of organs/to continue Ashtang Yoga etc. It will give us only timely pleasure of listening by ears. So the matter of faith/religion/yoga philosophy is deep and vast and requires study of Vedas/shastras and continue practice of Vedas/shastras and continue practice of Yoga philosophy under the supervision of an experienced Yogi who knows all the said system. When the aspiratnt becomes able to realize the fault about listening and hearing, as mentioned above, then he becomes a real ascetic and this is the stage of a Purified Chitta. Thus the practice of realizing Almighty God makes the acetic able to detach him from the effect of qualities of Prakriti (Rajo, Tamo & Sato Gun) and thus the soul attains Par-vairaagya (the highest stage of asceticism). The only soul who has attained the said highest stage of asceticism is only capable to attain the final liberation.