Ram Suri previous reply: For example, Lord Krishna (11/54) says that after exclusive devotion to divine, one can enter in him (pravestum), meaning that merging of soul in divine. Can you please reply to me sir?
Swami Ram Swarup: In this shloka, it is said that Shri Krishna can be seen, known and can be attained by continuous worship with entire devotion. As regard,” PRAVESHTUM ” Yajurveda mantra 40/6 says that God is within all and all creation is in God. So question of entering the soul into God does not arise. The creation tells the fact that God is within all and all creation is within God.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! What is the meaning of the word ‘attained’ in your answer? Lord Krishna also says in Gita 9/4 that every thing is present in him. We agree to it. Right? Then Lord Krishna also says that during the daytime of Lord Brahma (Here, we are not debating who this Lord Brahma is? To get answer for this question, please see my following answersalso), creation is done from prakruti, and during his nighttime, whole universe is dissolved in prakruti (please vide Gita 8/18,19 slokas). Now as per 9/4, every thing is already present in divine. Right? If it so, then how come creation and dissolution are taking place inside divine, when divine does not have any particular form? It does not make any meaning? Right? Therefore, the Gita sloka 9/4 or Yajurveda mantra 40/6 when they say that every thing is in divine, theyshould be understood that divine is present everywhere equally, and that there is no place that does not have divine presence. More over, as per your understanding both divine and souls are different and remain different forever absolutely, and even the liberated souls cannot merge in divine. Right? If this being your case, then, how come the above Yujurveda mantra and Gita sloka say that every thing is present in divine, which means they are already in merged state.Is it not some thing different from your opinion? Both Yajurveda mantra and Gita sloka 9/4 say that every thing is present in divine, but on the other hand you say that divine and souls are different permanent and cannot merge in each other. It means that your understanding is clashing with the above Yajurveda mantra also.
Swami Ram Swarup: It is all-okay and I appreciate your views please. Please accept my namaste. This spiritual discussion gives peace to so many concerned aspirants. Now I start mentioning my views. In discussions it is not necessary that one should acccept the views but it is sure that discussion and views must be free of tension etc., and love must be always in every one’s hearts for all. Secondly, your answers have never hurt me, it is a truth. I have been wondering in our India and abroad and have tried to promote international brotherhood and for this achievement one has to listen and bear all opposites’ views happily despite of the fact that the views are hurting nature or not. On Geeta shlok 11/54 my views are as under—
There are three facts to reach the God.
1. Knowledge (Gyan) i.e., to know about alive-non-alive, truth-untruth, Braham-illusion etc., by real sadhna.
2. To see (darshan) —– After knowing, an aspirant can see the motto only.
3. To enter (pravesh) —- After seeing the truth, the aspirant leaves behind the all untrue paths- untruth and adopt truth only I.e., he enters in truth.
Enter means ” to follow ” and not to enter the room etc. If a soul will enter the God, then it means, the God is standing in one space where the soul is not and the soul is standing in another place but Tateriopnishad says,” TAT SRISHTVA TADEVA NU PRAVISHAT ” I.E., God created the universe from prakriti and incorporated Himself in it. So God is separate and universe is separate. In this shlok, a word,” TATVEN ” is also mentioned which means to know the factual position- truth. In Valmiki Ramayan, Bal kand sarg one it is mentioned about Shri Ram that he was SARV SHASTRATH TATVAJYAHAN and VED VEDANG TATVAJYAHA i.e., knower of all shastras by truth and knower of all Vedas by truth. TATVA means factual position. So in this shlok of Bhagwat Geeta, the meaning of TATVEN PRAVESHTU is ” to enter by knowing factual truth “. So the meaning of TATVEN PRAVESHTU is not that the soul has merged into God and has become God. The meaning of ” atained “, you asked, is to achieve, please.Actually in advaitvad the merger philosophy is based on, only knowledge (Gyan) and not karma. So according to advaitvad, the meaning of ” TATVEN PRAVESHTUM ” is merger of soul into God. Whereas Vedas tell to adopt Gyan (knowledge in Rigveda), karma ( deeds vide Yajurveda) and Upsana (worship vide Saamveda ). So according to the said philosophy of Vedas, the meaning of next shlok i.e.,” MATKARMAKRIT, MATPARMAHA ” etc., says that the soul with his body should perform duties. Suppose, vide shlok 11/54, the soul is merged then the meaning of the next shlok is of no use. Therefore in my opinion, the meaning of “TATVEN PRAVESHTUM ” is to enter into knowledge by doing pious deeds. This point may please be discussed further.
Bhagwat Geeta shlok 9/4 says that God is formless and He is within all being “omnipresent”. All five matters and souls are situated within God but God does not i.e., after creating the world, the God incorporated Himself in it and thus given strength to earth, sun, moon and whole universe to be stable or to live upon etc. So this is the meaning of ” MATASTHANISARVABHUTANI “. On the other hand, God being Almighty needs no any help for His stability. So this is the meaning of “AHAM TESHU NA AVASTHITAHA” Almighty God is formless but the wprld is not formless. The world and bodies have forms. Even Shatpath Brahmin Granth says, “YASYA ATMA SHARIRAM ” i.e., the soul is the residence of Almighty God (Anandmaya kosh). So naturally, God is smallest (suksham) than world and souls and therefore has incorporated Himself within universe and souls, whereas universe and souls can not, just like the electric flow in electric wire. Wire is sthool and electricity is most suksham than the wire.
Bhagwta Geeta shlok 9/4 is also not saying that everything is already present in divine. Above quoted Tateriopnishad also clarifies that God incorporated Himself in universe after creating the universe from prakriti and this is very well clear in mandal 10, sukta 129-130 of Rigveda that after pralaya and at the beginning of creation, three tatvas were present having different qualities, i.e., God, Prakriti and souls; all immortal and eternal. So Yajurveda mantra 40/6 and Geeta shlok 9/4 never say that at the time of creation everything is already present in Divine (God). Actually after creation the Divine (God) incorporates Himself in the universe. You have told that creation is done from prakriti and is dissolved in prakriti and this fact is mentioned in all Vedas and Samkhya sutra 1/26 onwards that God creates universe from prakriti and prakriti made universe, at the time of destruction, pralaya, the universe is dissloved or takes the shape again as prakriti. It isnever said in any veda that prakriti has been merged in to God, please. Now please send your views.
The meaning of Yajurveda mantra 40/6 comes that the learned, who after studying Vedas and practising Ashtang yoga philosophy sees all non-alive and alive universe within God. And knows that God is everywhere, within whole universe, then he gets nomisunderstanding about prakriti made universe, alive souls and Almighty God. So here main thing is word “ANUPASHYATI”. Anu means after studying Vedas and practising ashtang yoga i.e., he who sees is soul. The another is prakriti made non-alive universe, seen bu soul and third is Almighty God. And in this Yajurveda mantra, there is no mention that the soul ora person is God. Now, please send your views.
Swami Ram Swarup: In this connection, Ramanujam says on this shloka that he who does continuos worship of mind, with whole heart/entire devotion, he attains me.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! How come you quote sri Ramanujam’s references in support of your views here when you do not believe in his Vishitadvaita philosophy? More over, as you may be aware that he believed Lord Vistnu as supreme divine (divine in saguna form) while you believe divine in nirgun form. As per your understanding divine does not have anysankalp or vikalp, and thus should always be a nirgun form. Right? When this is the case, how come you quote hisreferences? But I have no objection for your sri Ramanuja reference here. For Gita 11/54 sloka, sri Ramanuja said that by whole-hearted devotion, the sadhaka knows truly Lord Krishna (or divine), sees him (or experiences divine) and enters into Lord Krishna (or divine). Can you please tell me who is entering and where is entering into if everything is alreadypresent in divine as per your understanding of Yujurveda mantra, and if both divine and soul cannot merge in each other as per your understanding of scriptures?
Swami Ram Swarup: As regards Shri Ramanujam or any other dignity, who have done a lot and made their conclusion tallying with the Vedas, they are respectfully honoured, please. So in the sentence used by Shri Ramanujam quoted before, the meaning of “me” therein is “formless God”, please. “Nirguna” word is used, is not so appropriate as “Nirakaar”. However, the shape of the world, in which God is present, may be considered the form of God and God has unlimited qualities like omnipresent, Almighty, creator, gives result of karmas, alive, pure, formless etc., etc. So God can be considered on this basis ” Saguna ” but will always remain Nirakaar.
Swami Ram Swarup: In this connection, please refer Shatpath Brahmin Granth of Yaskacharya, quoted above, wherein it is stated the deepest and unseen meaning by Yaskacharya that in salvation, the soul has sankalp power and uses ear, nose, body etc., accordingly for merriment. Therefore without ear, nose, mind, budhhi etc., soul can do nothing which is fundamental of Vedas. And opened by ancient and present Rishis, as issaid in Rigveda mantra 1/1/2 and this secret can’t be known by arrogants please. Therefore please study Rishi-made holy books.
Ram Suri present reply: I agreed earlier also that soul has subtle body only up to certain point. In this regard, whatever Shatpath Brahmin Granth says is also true, but it is true only up to a certain point. Basically, your understanding, based on the above Granth, is only applicable to those souls, which follow devayani marg or archiradhi marg (which is also described by Lord Krishna in Gita. Please vide 8/24 sloka in Gita, also please see Brahma Sutras from IV.3.1 onwards for this topic; also please see Chandogya Upanishad 4.15.5 and 5.10.1 about this path). The soul will pass through Agni, jyoti, day,etc deities (I am skipping out many details here) and finally reaches a god by the help of a non-human person (Who is this non-human person? Please see Brihadaranyaka Upanishad [Bri. Upanishad] 6.2.15, and also see ‘tatpurusho maanasa aitya’in this sloka). We may call this person, who guides the soul to this God, as amanava purusha as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 (please see the term ‘tat purusho amanava’ .). It is commonly believed that this god, to whom the soul was brought, is Lord Brahma. Therefore, as per the above Bri. Upanishad reference, the soul finally reaches a god with the help of amanava purusha. I am deliberately stopped my answer to writer further in order to know your understanding on this topic. Therefore, you are most welcome to send your comments up to this point only. Please state clearly if you agree to my above points, which are supported with Upanishads, Brahma Sutras and Gita. We will proceed further slowly when our current discussion gets clearunderstanding. NamaskarRam Suri
Swami Ram Swarup: As regards the views of Shri Ramanujam ji, he is using word “Him” which means Almighty God. Almighty God as said in Yajurveda mantra, 40/6,7, is resalised by a Yogi. This is applicable to Yogeshwar Shri Krishna, Vyas Muni, Atri Rishi and several Rishis-Munis. So the Almighty God manifested/appeared within the body of Yogeshwar Shri Krishna and at that time Shri Krishna was equivalent to God. So the words mentioned in the Geeta like “Matkarmakrit, Mat parmaha, Mad bhaktaha, Mam sharnam ” etc.,etc. are as said in yajurveda mantra 31/11 i.e., ” BRAHMANO MUKHAM AASEET ” i.e., in this world, the mouth of a Yogeshwar is like a mouth of God from where the preach of Vedas, comes out (but God has no mouth). Now, please send your views and as regards who is “entering” and where is entering, I have clarified above by saying ” incorporated Himself ” etc., please.
As regards Shatpath Brahmin Granth, Shukla paksh means to met the death while doing pious deeds according to Vedas and Krishna paksh means the death while doing sins etc.
The conclusion of Braham sutra 4/3/1 is that he who worships Brahma goes to brahamlok through archi. Archi means Rashmi- kiran. In Chandogya Upnishad 5/10/1,2, there has been mentioned other paths also from archi to Agni, day, jyoti etc. And asregards Manav and amanav, the sadhak (manav) himself becomes a manav and teaches the aspirants and this philosophy is said ” Devyanmarg “.Archi means a stage of the soul like a pure ray.” Aha” (day) means the stage likea pure, bright day and so on. So these are the stages of souls and death on a proper day etc. Geeta shlok 8/27 is based on imagination only, otherwise the salvation is attained while alive. Secondly, there are no two types of salvation because salvation (moksh) means lack of body and sorrows etc. Yogeshwar whlie in body ( alive) is also in salvation but will feel heat, cold etc., through body but soulhas got Samadhi, but after death he will not feel anything else due to lack of body because from body, the sorrows, seasons, happiness, sadness etc., are felt. If it is not then, half salvation with subtle body etc., is not mentioned in Shatpath Brahmin kand 14, already stated or in any Ved mantra.