Ram Suri: Dear Swamiji, Namaskar. Please see my following responses for your previous answers. I do not have any hatred or anger while mentioning these answers. If they hurt you, please forgive me.
Swami Ram Swarup previous reply: If the karmas become zero by doing pious deeds, worship, yoga practice etc., then there becomes no next birth because birth means soul is provided with organs like eyes etc., and legs etc., and body to face the result of past births’ deeds etc. When karmas become zero, then no need of next body and soul remains always in merriment with minute/smallest organs which are called invisible sukshm sharir in Hindi and this sharir remains in space. And such souls get salvation i.e., final liberation.
Ram Suri’s response: Dear Swamiji, Namaskar. I am very thankful for your kind answer for this question. However, I feel your answer was not complete. The last statement in your answer was that “And such souls get salvation i.e., final liberation”. But my question was that where is the location of these souls that got absolute salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: Salvation means moksh. It does not mean that jeevatma has become God. If jeevatma becomes God then what is the charm of saying moksh i.e., who will realise the pleasure of moksh and in case of God salvation is not required. So soul cannot be God at any stage because it is not mentioned in four Vedas.
Ram Suri: In other words, do they merge in divine to become divine?
Swami Ram Swarup: No please, it is not possible as if soul is one like God then in Samkhya Shashtra sutra 1/122 of Kapil Muni says that so many rishis like Vaamdev got salvation (mukti) but remaining souls uptill now has no concern with salvation, so the Rishi says in the sutra. “adwaitam na” i.e., there is no adwaitvad in the matter of souls. It means souls are uncounted and god is only one. And not even one mantra of any Veda says that God has been transferred in so many souls while indulging in maya and after sadhana God gets salvation. Salvation is only a subject of souls. In Rigved mandal 10 sukta 135 it is clearly mentioned that soul is eternal and God bless him with body especially human body to realise God. In Rigved mantra 10/177/1 God awards salvation to souls. In Rigved 10/135/3 it is mentioned that soul when due to ignorance gets body then soul take so many death and rebirth (new bodies) but on the other hand God never takes body because it is not in God’s quality. God is beyond death and birth. But sorry to say that due to lack of knowledge of Vedas, presently so many saints say that maya is the power of God by which God creates His own bodies (and does leela etc., etc.,) some say that maya is equivalent to God and the things of God cannot be wrong, this is totally against the Vedas. See what is maya. Rajo gun, tamo gun and sato gun is maya by which kaam, krodh etc., so many illusions are originated and all, Vedas say that man and woman must be brahamchari and even in family life he must be controlling all these kaam,krodh,mad ,ahankaar etc. At the time of creation Vedas are originated by God in the heart of four Rishis and the Vedas are the first proof to recognise truth. There are about 108 upnishads but only 11 upnishads are considered authenticated because of proof of Vedas. Some saint say if God wishes (sankalp) then maya will start working and if God wishes to stop it will be stopped. See , there is no any sankalp or vikalp in God according to four Vedas as a proof in token. So these saints are saying at their own accord. Sankalp and vikalp is only in souls only.
Ram Suri: The way a river merges into a sea and becomes a seaor these souls would present near to the divine and enjoy the merriments?
Swami Ram Swarup: River has water and sea has water and both water has same qualities and are non alive and are destroyed at last being made of prakriti. In Chhandog upnishad 6/9/1,2,3 also clearifies wherein it is mentioned that when soul reaches to truth (God), soul does not loose his original shape. Whereas soul and God has diferent qualities and are alive and eternal and neither born nor got death and not made by any matter. So to quote the example of river and sea in the matter of God is not justified. A drop of raining water if fallen in sea will be a sea, no doubt. But from where we can bring a drop of God. Drop means the piece of God and it is not possible, God being unchangeable, deshapable. Someone say the soul is wave of water separated from ocean and when will be fallen again in ocean will become ocean again, it is true. Because usually in the ocean so many waves are rising. Why? Because ocean is flowing on earth and waves are going above in the space. But this is not applicable in the matter of God, God being omnipresent and has no space to raise any wave from Him to any space.
Ram Suri: This will help to take corresponding position for further discussion. I will be grateful to you if you could quote proof from Vedas or Upanishads or Gita for your claims. Coming to invisible sukshm sharir for soul that attained absolute salvation, Brahma Sutras IV.2.8 says that this sharir is present for a liberated soul (Please remember! Liberated soul hasn’t got absolute salvation), and this body lasts until this soul merges in divine for final absolute salvation. Swami Ram Swarup: Braham sutra 4/2/8 clearifies that shuksham sharir of ignorant is up to pralay and of knolwedgest up to Braham prapti. But we can’t come to the point based only on this sutra. It is related with the previous and forward sutras. Please study sutra 4/2/15,16 also wherein word “AVIBHAGAH” is qouted. AVIBHAG means during Moksh, salvation or final liberation etc., etc., the soul will not loose his original shape as mentioned in Chhandog upnishad 6/9/1,2. Therefore merger (laya) means the soul with his shuksham sharir will not act as this was doing when sea was not merged but will retain his shukshamsharir at the time of merger. (salvation, moksh, total liberation, final liberation, kevalaya pad, samadhi, absolute salvation etc.,) otherwise how soul can enjoy moksh, pleasure without shuksham sharir. Because soul is unable to do anything without shuksham or sathul sharir. Please see Braham sutra 4/4/11 wherein Jemini accepts the shuksham sharir in moksh. Please see Chhandog upnishad 7/26/2 wherein it is mentioned that in moksh the soul builts 3,5,11 and thousands i.e., types of body. Because soul cannot be divided into bodies. Please see Kath upnishad 2/6/10 which says that when mind and five senses becomes stable in God i.e.,called total salvation. Please See shalok 15 of the same Kath upnishad wherein it is said that soul with pure senses and mind enjoys the final liberation.
Ram Suri: But, as per your understanding, the soul that attained final salvation would possess sukshm sharir, which contradicts the above Brahma Sutra. I may make a guess the reason for this type of understanding on your part.
Swami Ramswar: This does not contradicts please as explained above. What happens, we generally do not study full Vedas, shahstras. Whatever suits us we choose. Whereas after stuyding full shashtras the conclusion can be attained. Atharvaveda 12th kand clearifies that cut pieces are not required, full study is required. For example some saints say that Tulsi says — KALYUG KEWAL NAAM ADHARA etc., because it suits them but they will not tell about Uttra kand that Tulsi also says — YOG AGNI PRAKAT KARI KARAM SHUBHA SHUBH LAI. Means one should do yoga pratice to burn all good and bad deeds. They will not say “KOI NAHIN MANAT NIGAM ANUSASAN, DWIJ SHRUTI BECHAK BHOOP PRAJASAN. ” – means nobody accepts Vedas’ philosophy and Gurus do not know Vedas etc., etc. it is also astonished that mostly Gurus says not to read six shashtras but choose their favourable sutra only. They say that shashtras are against each other which is totally false. The six Rishis who wrote the six shashtras were MANTRADRISHTA RISHIS i.e., philosopher of Vedas and Yoga, i.e., Brahamleen. They chose one subject from Vedas and that is why the six shahstras have different subjects but not against each other. Kapil Muni chose prakriti, Vyas Muni chose God, Patanjali Rishi yoga, etc., etc. but it does not mean that those Rishis were ignorant of other subjects of Vedas. We must try to spread truth,avoid untruth and cut piece knowledge.
Ram Suri: Perhaps, you are talking about the souls that reached Brahma Lok by Krama mukti path.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please, I am talking about final liberation.
Ram Suri: These souls at Brahma Lok are called liberated souls, but nevertheless, they haven’t yet attained the absolute salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please ,such like liberation is not mentioned in Vedas. It may be self made.
Ram Suri: These souls will stay at Brahma Lok till the time of pralaya, and they attain divine along with Lord Brahma for final salvation, as described in Brahma Sutras IV.3.10.
Swami Ram Swarup: As I already told these sutra relates to previous and forward sutras, so please also study Brahm sutra 4/3/ 12,13 &14 which clearifies that soul realises Braham only (moksh) and will not stay till time of pralaya ( officiating Braham lok etc.,). Refer Chhandog upnishad 5/10/2, 8/6/6 and kath upnishad 2/3/16. Sutra 14 clearifies that there is no any officiating Brahm lok where soul will stay till pralaya.
Ram Suri: I can quote some of the instances to show that liberated souls will possess the invisible body. But this body is not found once the soul attains divine for salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote the examples because it is not mentioned in four Vedas.
Ram Suri: Chandogya Upanishad, 7.26.2 says that liberated soul has a body and organs. Interestingly, Brahma Sutras, IV.4.12 says that liberated soul can exist in both ways, that is, with body and organs or without body and without organs. Brahma Sutras, IV.4.13 says that for liberated soul that has no body and no organs, the enjoyment is like in dreams, while for those souls with body and organs, the enjoyment is like in waking state (Brahma Sutras, IV.4.14). Please, remember, the soul described here is a liberated soul only, whichhas not yet obtained absolute salvation. I am skipping all details on the assumption that you know them in detail. The conclusion is that you did not answer for my question about the location of soul that attained absolute salvation. Instead, you gave answer for liberated souls.
Swami Ram Swarup: Salvation ia always final salvation and not in parts please, I have explained the sutra above which were quoted by you.
Swami’s previous reply: I do not say but the advaitvad says the remaining matter is God and not divine because in advaitvad they say EKO BRAHAM DWITIYO NA ASTI. Its meaning, they say, — there is only one God and nothing else so the soul, body, sun , etc., allare God. But by misunderstanding like a snake in the rope these matters are being looked by an ignorant as sun, body etc. This does not suit from Vedas.
Ram Suri present response: When advaitins say that “EKO BRAHAM DWITIYO NA ASTI”, it should be analyzed under what context this sentence is applied. It should not be applied in a loose or general sense. Many Upanishads also repeat the above sentence that other than the divine nothing else is present. Then, one may wonder here that if every thing is divine, then what about sun, moon, other planets etc.
Swami Ram Swarup: Atharvaveda kand 13 sukta 4 mantra 16, 17, 18, 20, 21 clarify that there is only one God and equivalent to this God there is no two three or unlimited God, but souls and prakriti is there who are not equivalent to God even, mantra 13,14,15 also clarifynthe same. As regard EKO BRAHAM DWITYA NA ASTI here adwitya means there is no second God because the reference is of God here. When reference/context is of God then souls or prakriti can’t be considered stating that there is only one God and souls and prakriti are not there. Can anybody go against the above Rigveda mantras or against the shahstras and upnishads? But SWATAH PRAMAAN is only Vedas. If there is anything against Vedas mentioned in any Upniahad or literature then those are not acceptable. Because in Samkhya shahstra and yog shashtra too Rishi say in sutra 1/7 that PRATAKSHA ANUMAAN AAGAM PRAMANANNI. I.e., aagam (ved) Vedas are final proof. Shevtashwaropnishad 6/8 says that equivalent or above God there is nothing but God’s knowledge, power and karam are automatic ( swabhavik) i.e., God has to create world and has to give bodies to unlimited souls from prakriti and this task of God is automatic i.e., HE needs no assistance and sankalp. In Chhandog upnishad it is said EKAM ADWITYAM MEANS BEFORE CREATION THERE WAS ONLY ONE God. And equivalent to this God there was no other God and can not be. But as said in RigVeda mandal 10 sukta 129 that before creation God ,souls and prakriti Everybody eternal) were there in unseen original shape. And name of prakriti is AABHU in mantra 3 from which the first mahat tatv (mind) was created. In mantra 7 the God is said to be the commander of this prakriti. In mantra 5 the description of souls (eternal and inlimited) were there who were waiting for birth(body). So tretvad is there according to not only Rigved alone, but according to four Vedas.
Ram Suri: In order to understand the context of above sentences clearly, we will take an example. When we say Surya dev, for example, it is understood that he has some physical body, which is not seen with our mortal eyes. This body may not resemble like our body. The physical body is perishable after some time. Also it should be understood that Surya dev has also a soul. The perishable body in his case also merges in prakruti after destruction.
Swami Ram Swarup: There is no any mantra in four Vedas to say that Surya dev has soul. Yask Muni in his Shathpath Brahmin Granth clarifies the meaning of word Dev first dev= YE DADATI SAH DEVAH i.e., he who gives something that is Dev. So sun, moon etc., are devah which gives us ray of light, energy etc. Vedas say SURYA ATMA JAGATAS TASTUSCH means God is the atma of surya and souls’ i.e., God is omnipresent. In Brihandarnayk upnishad Yagvalk Muni has clarified about five alive Deva and 33 non-alive deva. In 33 non alive Deva surya is there. So surya is non-alive and has got no alive soul. So surya has physical body and is being seen by all. Surya has no unseen body. Here you are saying about prakriti and merging of sun in it, which is correct. So prakriti is there and God is also there in the universe.
Ram Suri: On the other hand, when divine says, “I am sun among bright things” in Gita (10/21).
Swami Ram Swarup: In Rigved mantra 1/164/46 it is said that there is only one God but His names are several and surya, chandrma, vaayu are also the name of God, it is said. So Yogeshwar Krishna says about vibhuti of God in shalok 10/21 that in aditi (a+diti= which can not be broken in pieces). I am Vishnu. Vishlri vyaptau Vishnu it means omnipresent (sarvavyapak) and in jyoti I am sun etc., etc.,i.e., greatest position of the world which all are within God. So non-alive surya, moon etc., are not God, God is within them.
Ram Suri: It means that Lord is referring to the soul of Surya dev. Why is the soul equated with divine here? Why not the physical body of Surya dev is compared with divine? Because the physical body of Surya dev or for that matter any other physical body is also subjected to destruction one day or other. Therefore, divine has to be equated with a nonperishable thing, which is soul.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please study Yajurveda chapter 31 and mandal 10 of Rigveda who say that God created sun,moon etc., from non-alive prakriti. So the Yogeshwar Krishna did tell about the soul of surya/sun. Physical body of surya has been compared that God is in surya and in the universe if anybody compared about lights so the main light of world is non alive sun made by God from prakriti. Otherwise there is no other comparison of God.
Ram Suri: Now, when some one says that every thing is divine, this statement should be understood with respect to the soul, not with respective to the physical body.
Swami Ram Swarup: Totally wrong and being against the Vedas please.
Ram Suri: With this perception if you see the world, then every thing in the universe is divine (it is very difficult initially).
Swami Ram Swarup: When your soul feels it is difficult that is why Vedas say it is impossible.
Ram Suri: This makes sense also according to Gita in 9/4, where Lord Krishna says that he (divine), in un-manifest form, is present everywhere in the universe.
Swami Ram Swarup: Yajurveda mantra 40/6 says that the whole world (universe) is within God and within universe the God is omnipresent. So based on this truth Yogeshwar Krishna says that the whole world is within me. Yog shashtra sutra 1/26 clarifies that almighty God is the first Guru of our four Rishis at the time of creation. Shri Krishna with Sudama studied Vedas and yoga in Gurukul of Sandeepan Rishi and Geeta is the preach of Vedas.
Ram Suri: Therefore, to a jeevan mukta’s eyes, every thing looks divine.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. He realises God within him and he knows about non-alive prakriti and souls too.
Ram Suri: For other people eyes, everything looks different, and hence they fail to see divine presence everywhere.
Swami Ram Swarup: Everywhere means everything is there wherein God is present. If everywhere is not there then where the God will be present and how God will be calledomnipresent.
Ram Suri: In other words, a jeevan mukta sees divine everywhere with his gyan eye, where as ignorant people tries to see divine through their mortal eyes.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please being against the Vedas. What is gyan eye when jeevan mukt has left his body here.
Ram Suri: And fails to see divine every where. That is why a jeevan mukta is called a jeevan mukta, while others are called ignorant. Now, you analyze the above mantra “EKO .. ASTI” with respective to this background, and contemplate if anything is wrong when advaitins say that everything is divine.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please as stated above. I again say if everything is God then God is not omnipresent which is impossible please.
Ram Suri: If you go little further, shastras also say that the world is illusion, and is nothing but projection of mind.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. It is against the Vedas.
Ram Suri: If you take the literal meaning of this sentence, then once again you will misunderstand it. One should know under what context this statement is made. This world (prakruti) changes every second, every minute, every hour, and every day.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. Four Vedas says that prakriti is unchangeable, Rigveda mandal 10 and Samkhya sutra 1/26 refers and in Samkhya sutra 1/18 prakriti is toldunder control of God. So God is separate and prakriti is separate.
Ram Suri: Since divine is changeless, this world cannot be said to be divine. Hence this world is illusion, and impermanent, and it exists to those people so long astheir mind has the control over them.
Swami Ram Swarup: When you accepts the existence of world so the God is separate from world. And you are here also saying that world is illusion and impermanent whereas God does not have these qualities.
Ram Suri: In Maitreya Upanishad, mantra 1.9 says that “Chitta meva he samsara .”, meaning that mind is the cause of this samsar.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 mantra three the word has been created by God from prakriti and mind and chitta is the creation of the prakriti as also said by Kapil Muni in his Samkhya sutra 1/26. So it is against the Vedas and not acceptable.
Ram Suri: Similarly, Lord Krishna, at the beginning of conversation with Uddhav in Uddhava Gita..
Swami Ram Swarup: Uddav Geeta is not accepted please only Bhagwat Geeta is accepted written by Rishi Vyas, philosopher of Vedas and yoga. To My surprise recently I heard from a T.V. saint that yogeshwar Krishna was a slave of ladies and by this way he was inspiring people to worship Shri Krishna. What a wonder, which is not acceptable please. So everybody is free in this country to say anythinh against Rishi,Munis,Vedas,yajna and Yoga being secular country, neither God nor the philosopher of Vedas will ever accept being against the Vedas,the final proof.
Ram Suri: Uddhava Gita said that understanding of this world or anything by mind etc is nothing but figment of imagination (Yadhidam manada vacha .. maya manomayam, 2.7). This means that the world when viewed by mind is nothing but illusion. Except jeevan mukta, all remaining people are dominated by mind, and hence everything is understood and processed by mind and buddi, and makes him to think that he is doing. Therefore for such people, the world exists. In case of jeevan mukta, as he experienced the divine, and as the mind is under his control, he understands that he is not the doer but only a witness for all actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please being against the Vedas. Rigveda mantra 1/164/20 clarifies (DWA SUPARNA SAKHAYA SAYUJA SAMANM VRIKSHE—-) that there are three — 1. body made by prakriti LIKE TREE ( destroyable) 2. Soul and 3. God. Soul face the result of karmas in body and does new karmas also whereas God is looking the deeds of the soul. So God is witness not the soul. We have a proof for this statement also in Gita (5/13).
Ram Suri: If we have faith in Lord Krishna and his teachings, then we do not need any more proofs to show that everything in this world is illusion and divine alone is true.
Swami Ram Swarup: Shri Krishna say in bhagwat Geeta 3/15 that all karmas are originated from Vedas and Vedas originated from Almighty God. And in 13/4 chapter that all this knowledge is in the Vedas and Rishis have already told from Vedas i.e., Shri Krishna is giving knowledge from Vedas too. It is good if we love our children but it is bad if do not remember our parents, so every ancient holy books are based on Vedas therefore we must first remember and love Vedas thereafter others are respectable too. Due to lack of this truth our country of Rishis of Shri Rama and shri Krishna which was a golden bird and Guru of whole world (vishwa Guru) has become ruined.
Ram Suri: When the mind is controlling us, then the world exists.
Swami Ram Swarup: Us and mind are separate please, you agree here. So controlling power on both i.e., God is separate. (us= souls, mind = made of prakriti as quoted above).
Ram Suri: However, if this mind is controlled very well, then the world ceases to exist. Example is jeevan mukta. For him, the mind is well under his control, and since he has experienced the divine, he understood his divine nature, and hence for him, the world ceases to exist. Some of the following quotes are taken from Tejo Bindu Upanishad (6.77 to 98) to show to whom the world exists:
Swami Ram Swarup: Please see above.
Ram Suri: The world exists for those people who are bitten by a rope that is assumed to be a snake.
Swami Ram Swarup: Snake exist in the world and rope too and both are different in qualities. Why an elephant is not seemed in rope because the shape does not tally with the rope. So we cannot say that we have not seen body of snake or rope earlier. These exists. Secondly the man who is misleaded and seeing the snake in the rope is God fundamentally in accoradance with present adaitvad. If he is God then why he is misled? If someone say that for sometime that maya has attacked on God and God has become jeevtama temporarily then it is again wrong because Yajurveda manbtra 40/8 say that God is beyond illusion and God is the purest (SHUDHAM APAAP VIDHAM) .
Ram Suri: Who tries to light the lamp with the help of a drawing picture of a candle.
Swami Ram Swarup: From where candle came? Candle was made and match box was made previously in the world and the artist made the picture of candle and thus if in the darkness in the night ,light is required from candle it will be purchased and match box alos be purchased and light will be obtained from candle.
Ram Suri: If one is able to tie a rough elephant with the help of hair of a tortoise.
Swami Ram Swarup: I think there is nobody on the earth to do such task of ignorance. Only a clever elephant master look after a elephant such a big animal.
Ram Suri: If fire is cold by touch..
Swami Ram Swarup: Nature can not be changed. So the nature (qualties ) of God, prakriti and souls’ are unchangeable. If fire is cold by touch then only in case of mad. Otherwise who can change the nature of fire?
Ram Suri: If a mosquito wins a fight against a lion..
Swami Ram Swarup: Naturally not but only possible in dreams and in case of mad. But not in case of learned.
Ram Suri: If heat fried seeds germinate..
Swami Ram Swarup: Usually not (but I must astonish on all above examples which are not even near to the vast subject of God, prakriti and souls. Because all false statements have been told by Samkhya Muni to tell only due to impression on Chitta in his sutra 1/23. But of no use at any cost. As about seed please study Samkhya sutra 1/10 and 11.)
Ram Suri: The incidents in the above examples cannot happen,
Swami Ram Swarup: The above examples are of no use in this matter please as said by Samkhya sutra 1/23.
Ram Suri: And hence this Upanishad says that world is illusion. For a jeevan mukta, the world ceases to exist, as his mind is well under his control, and hence he sees divine everywhere.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here what is world, mind,what is illusion and who is jeevanmukta. Are all these are one?
Ram Suri: If the world ceases to exist to a jeevan mukta then, what is left behind for him? It is the divine that is present everywhere for him. For other ordinary people also, divine is present everywhere, but they are lack of gyan eye to see. The conclusion is that when advaitins say that the world is maya and divine alone exist, it is based upon this experience of the shastras and divine. Therefore, whatever advaitins say in this regard, it is consistent with Upanishads, Gita and other scriptures, and hence they are correct. The rope and snake analogy is not something first said by advaitins. It is found in some Upanishads also. For example, the above Upanishad also uses this example. When Upanishads compares something with rope and snake, it should be taken as true, unless one does not believe in Upanishads, which are a part of Vedas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Upnishads are not part of Vedas. First upnishads are written by Rishis who took birth and Vedas are the direct knowledge from Almighty God who is beyond death and birth. However Rishis studied Vedas and based on the knowledge of the Vedas they wrote 11 upnishads.
Ram Suri: Now we will see under what context, this analogy is applied. We need to analyze it closely about the truth in this analogy. Whenever we see some materialistic thing, the eye sees first, and gives the information to mind..
Swami Ram Swarup: Eye never see being non alive. And mind cannot take information being non alive also both does work when soul is there in the body because dead body has organs but of no use.
Ram Suri: ..which in turn gives it to buddi. It is the buddi that takes a decision. That means this buddi gives the judgment to misunderstand the rope to a snake. Up to this point (from karma indriyas to buddi), prakruti is the responsible, but not the divine.
Swami Ram Swarup: Jeevatma is responsible being alive not God not prakriti.
Ram Suri: In other words, vikaras and gunas arise from prakruti (13/20 Gita)..
Swami Ram Swarup: In this shalok karya and karan are mentioned. According to Vedas and shatras karan is prakriti being unchageable and when prakriti is used by God for creation then sun ,moon bodies etc., are its karya. This is called maya. Which is said in 13/19.And also told that jeevtma and prakriti are eternal. Prakriti is non-alive and his vikaar and gunas cannot attack to anybody else. Suppose how a sword without any warrior will attack on enemy? This is only jeevtma who is alive and attracts towards vikaar and guna of prakriti.
Ram Suri: and faced by the physical body that is associated with senses, karma etc (13/21 & 22 Gita)…
Swami Ram Swarup: As stated above.
Ram Suri: ceases to exist, as his mind is well under his control, and hence he sees divine everywhere.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here what is world, mind,what is illusion and who is jeevanmukta. Are all these are one?
Ram Suri: If buddi is entangled with bad type of karma, it gives judgments to do bad actions. It means, due to ignorance, the doer ship of all actions is identified by the soul.
Swami Ram Swarup: Soul is provided with the budhhi, chitta and body etc., to face the previous birth karmas as mentioned in Rigveda mantra 10/135/1. So the result of karma is awarded to soul (jeevtma being alive and eternal and not to budhhi or mind etc., being non-alive. Suppose a man murders with sword then sword is not punished being non-alive ,the man is punished.
Ram Suri: The consequence of these vikaras and gunas is that they will hold the soul in the body (that is, birth after birth, 14/5 Gita).
Swami Ram Swarup: And rebirth is according to karmas. In this shalok i.e., 14/5 Shri krishna says that three gunas of prakriti holds the soul i.e., this body, mind etc.,is made of three gunas of prakriti and alive soul resides in this body.
Ram Suri: The meaning of all these things is that the divine quality of soul is covered by untrue assumptions of prakruti, as said in Chandogya Upanishad, 8.3.1.
Swami Ram Swarup: Soul is soul. There is no mention of any divine soul in Vedas. As said above the soul resides in untrue body. But untrue wishes (kaam, krodh, mad etc.,) are of alive soul and not of prakriti and prakriti’s gunas being non-alive and the upnishad says that from these untrue wishes the true wishes i.e., to worship, to do pious deeds, to do yajna, to study Vedas, to do hard working, to discharge duties according to Vedas have been covered. So Kath upnishad also says that there are two ways— “shreyah ch preyah”, meanstrue and untrue and soul according to Yajurveda mantra 7/48 is free to do good or bad, true or untrue, but result will be awarded by God in shape of pious or sin. It is Vedic philosophy and cannot be changed as said in Yajurveda mantra 1/5, in which ANRIT (FALSE) AND SATYA (TRUE) BOTH WORDS ARE MENTIONED and taking in Chhandogya Upnishad said by you from this Veda mantra. Upnishads are from Vedas but Vedas are not from upnishad or any other holy book as God is the first Guru of the universe as said in Yog shahstra of Patanjali Rishi in sutra 1/26. We must follow the preach of Vedas of our eternal Guru Almighty God.
Ram Suri: Then, the question is where is the place of divine in the above rope and snake example? Beyond buddi, divine is present, in the form of soul (soul = divine, 10/20 Gita) in everyone’s heart.
Swami Ram Swarup: As I already told in reply to your one question that Yask Muni says in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth — “YASYA ATMA SHARIRAM” YASYA= GOD’S MEANS THE SOUL IS THE BODY OF GOD. IT MEANS GOD IS WITHIN THE SOUL. GEETA 10/20 says similar truth as of Yask muni.
Ram Suri: This soul is not responsible for the judgment of the buddi. In reality, soul is only a witness to all actions. But, due to ignorance coming out of trigunas, which are prakrutic in nature, it identifies to physical body as self, and thus takes of fruits of all actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: Soul is responsible being alive. God is witness as told above vide Rigveda mantra 1/164/20 and not soul. Some saints of now a days say that Vedas are like mango tree and katha is the fruit of mango tree i.e., mango. They say we must get mango and what is the benefit to talk about mango tree. This is direct insult of God and Vedas. God in Atharvaveda mantra 10/8/32 says — PASHYA DEVSYA KAVYAM NA MAMAAR NAJIRYATI” i.e., study the Vedas which are immotral and can never be made old i.e., Vedas are evergreen. This is deep and lengthy philosophy which I cannot explain here more. I.e., soul takes fruits as I explained above vide Yajurveda mantra 7/48, even in ignorance/foolishness due to indulgment or attraction towards prakriti’s gunas.
Ram Suri: In case of jeevan mukta, this self is experienced, and thus he understands that he is not the doer of the actions, but a witness to the actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: The jeevan mukta is free by all karmas i.e., he has to face no karmas that is why he has got final liberation. But the jeevan mukta knows that he is not body, he is soul and he realises God within him. So no matter of seeing the karmas by soul of jeevan mukta because he has nothing to do with the karmas. Witness of the karmas is still God of all souls because HE has to award the result of karmas. Soul does not award anyresult of karmas to any soul. Soul is not empowered to do this. Only God is empowered.
Ram Suri: Therefore, your argument how the soul, if it is a divine, has misunderstood the rope being a snake, cannot have a stand here and thus cannot come into the picture at all.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have already explained above.
Ram Suri: Because, here, the soul is not taking any decision whether the rope is a snake or vice versa. The decision is taken by the buddi, which is lower than soul.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have already explained above that budhhi being non-alive and first result of creation from non alive prakriti vide Rigved mandal 10 sukta 129 quoted above, cannot take decision. A brick or stone or our body, which is made of prakriti, how can take decision being non-alive?
Ram Suri: When this is the ground reality, then where is the question of divine being captured by maya.
Swami Ram Swarup: You have already said above that soul has been covered by prakriti etc. If divine (God) as per adaitvad is not captured by maya then the man who is looking towards rope why is misled and is seeing rope as a snake? When there is nothing except God then rope, snake and the man who is looking towards rope all are God and there must be no question of misunderstanding.
Ram Suri: On the other hand, it is certainly the trick of maya for not having properly understood of this analogy and the context. And who has to say authoritatively that Vedas accept something or not?
Swami Ram Swarup: The person who has studied all the Vedas is empowered to say otherwise what is the use of Vedas. Why the Vedas knowledge given by God. In Yajurvedamantra 40/8 it is said that— YATHA TATYATHAH SMABHAYAH ARTHAN VYADADHAT means— the God preaches to the public the knowledge of all matters through Vedas and not by other means. That is why God is our first Guru as per Yog Shahstra sutra 1/26.
Ram Suri: If some one misunderstands the Vedas, or Upanishads or other scriptures, then do we need to accept their claims?
Swami Ram Swarup: No please, because he talks about the Vedas but he has neither seen the Vedas nor studied otherwise like Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, Vyas Muni etc., who studied the Vedas the person could start doing holy yajna, ashtang yoga and brahamcharya etc. that is why Guru Nanak says– VED KATEV KAHO MAT JHOOTHE, JHOOTHA SO JO NA VICHARE. I.e., he is the liar who does not study Vedas properly. Tulsi also says in Uttrakand— SHRUTI VIRODH RAT SAB NAR-NARI, i.e., in kalyug every man and woman are against the Vedas. Again — DWIJ SHRUTI BECHAK i.e., Gurus have sold the Vedas etc., etc. Manusmriti shalok 2/168 ( YO ANDHITYA DWIJAH VEDAM ANYATR KURUTE SHRMAM—-SHUDRTWAM GACHHATI) says for those who does not study Vedas.
Ram Suri: Swamiji, please contemplate over it.
Swami Ram Swarup: Done as above please.
Swamiji’s previous reply: I did not say that sun, moon, bodies etc., are prakriti but I told that these are made of prakriti. At the time of mahapralay these sun, moon, etc., i.e., whole creation is merged in prakriti i.e., take the shape of prakriti and Prakriti is eternal like God and souls. Mud is one matter but pots made from mud take another shape. So sun, moon etc., are made from prakriti but not these are not prakriti. Hence, the tretvad. So I do not, even did not agree that sun, moon etc., are prakriti as you stressed above in your present question.
Ram Suri present response: You have said that the physical bodies are made from prakruti, and that they are not called prakruti. Can we say that once the physical bodies are created or made from prakruti, they no longer be called prakruti?
Swami Ram Swarup: Yes please we can say. Similarly if a pot is made from mud, though it is made of mud but it will not be told that the pot is mud. So prakriti is unchangeable as said in Samkhya shashtra sutra 1/26 but when it is used by God for creation then from prakriti’s three gunas the creation like sun, moon, bodies are made. But sun, moon and bodies are not called prakriti but made of prakriti.
Ram Suri: For example, we take the same example that you have quoted in your reply. You quoted mud and pot example. This analogy is found in Chandogya Upanishad, 5.1.4. Suppose I make a pot from the mud. Can I say now that the pot is not mud? The mud in this case is modified or transformed into a pot, but it does not means that the pot is not mud. Similarly, when the physical bodies are made or created from prakruti, they still represent the prakruti. Nevertheless, the prakruti is modified into physical bodies.
Swami Ram Swarup: Already replied above. If pot is mud then nobody will use pot for food etc. In Chhandogya upnishad shalok quoted by you there is no mention of mudplease.
Ram Suri: But it does not mean that the physical bodies are not prakruti. The bodies are prakruti, and due to that very reason, they are able to dissolve in prakruti after the death, like similar things mix together.
Swami Ram Swarup: What is dissolved in prakriti – body, organs etc., or prakriti means how prakriti is dissolved in prakriti.
Ram Suri: The conclusion is that even though the physical bodies are made of prakruti, they are still called prakruti, because they are representing the prakruti.
Swami Ram Swarup: An ambassador of a nation goes to the President of another nation, the ambassador of the first nation is a rep., of the President of the nation but cannotbe a President. Prakriti is unchanged but creation is changeable that is why Kapil Muni in sutra 1/26 says Raj, Tam and Satv Samya Awastha Prakritihi. Prakriti is karan and creation is its karya. Whereas there is no karan or karya of God and souls.
Ram Suri: Thus, the bodies finally merge in prakruti, like a spoon of water dissolves in a glass of water.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. Body is merged in prakriti but not like water. Because spoon water is a quantitiy of same water where it is to be merged, whereas body made of prakriti does not have the quality of prakriti being the karya of prakriti.
Ram Suri: In nutshell, it is like this. The physical bodies go into prakruti after death, and the liberated souls go into divine for absolute salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: Explained above please.
Ram Suri: If the souls are unable to merge in divine, it means that the souls are associated with bondage or karma, and needs to annihilate the karma.
Swami Ram Swarup: As stated in Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 and 130 that soul, prakriti and God are separate from each other by qualities too. So soul cannot be merged inGod to be a God.
Ram Suri: For this purpose, they will take birth and come into this world. This is the essence of all spiritual books, and this is what advaita also teaches.
Swamiji’s previous reply: I could not understand that what do you mean by Divine. If you consider its meaning God or like God then the answer will be changed because sun, moon are made from Prakriti and prakriti is non alive matter like mud and the matters are destroyed one day and cannot be God because God is immortal.
Ram Suri present response: Divine is called Bhagawan, while God is called Dev.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote the differences between Bhagwan and Dev.
Ram Suri: Gods are many, like Indra Dev, Vayu Dev, Varun Dev, Agni Dev, Surya Dev, Chandra Dev etc. But divine is only one, without a second.
Swami Ram Swarup: Indra Dev etc., are goddesses as per Purann but as per Vedas there is only one Almighty God who creates,nurses and destroy the universe as mentionedin 31 chapter of Yajurveda,Saamveda mantra 617 and ahead in Atharvaveda kand 19 and in Rigveda mandal 10.
Ram Suri: With respective this information, the above statement, “Eko ..”, the word ‘Braham’ should be understood as divine, not as god(s). The question is why many gods are present? In order to perform various jobs in the universe, different gods are required.
Swami Ram Swarup: As per the mantras of four Vedas quoted above God is Almighty and independent and thus needs no assistant please.
Ram Suri: Now, please do not emphasize that such gods do not exist, or divine does not need any assistance from Gods, or Vedas do not say the existence of such gods or lokas. I love and respect Vedas a lot. Gita acknowledges the existence of various lokas and gods in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Vedas tells about 33 nonalive devas as I explained giving the references of talk between Gargi and Rishi Yagvalkya and five alive devas i.e., MATRI DEVO BHAVA, PITRI DEVO BHAVA, ATHITHI DEVO BHAVA, ACHARYO DEVO BHAVA AND FIFTH IS MAHADEV (SAAMVEDA MANTRA 276 ALSO REFERS) I.E., ALMIGHTY GOD.
Ram Suri: These are altogether present in different time and space dimensions. For example, in Gita (2/37)..
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE HERE ONLY, According tokarmas. One side you please accept only one God and on the other side you say about so many Gods. If there is only one God as Vedas say then the God is Almighty and needs no assistance of Gods to create, nurses and destroy the universe.
Ram Suri: Lord Krishna says to Arjun, “If you die in the battle, you will go to heaven and enjoy there”. “On the other hand, if you win the battle, you will enjoy the kingdom on the earth when living” It means that if Arjun dies in the battle, then Lord Krishna says that Arjun would go to a place called heaven and enjoys there.Now, if heaven does not exist really, then why Lord Krishna would say about it. Is he trying to fool Arjun? No. Some people, without thinking much, argue that both heaven and hell exist on the earth only, andthey simple dismiss the existence of such invisible lokas in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Shri Krishna as told by Vyas Muni in Mahabharta, studied four Vedas,did unlimited holy Yajna and practise ashtang Yoga. Similarly in the case of Vyas Muni. So Geeta is a preach of Vedas and written by Vyas Muni and those who have not studied Sanskrit Grammar and four Vedas and have not practised ashtang yoga with Brahamcharya, for those Rigveda mantra 1/164/16 says ,” NA CHIKET ANDHSAH” i.e., he is not able to understand Vedas or the preach of Vedas. Therefore the meaning of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh. Please study all Vedas with Grammar. To understand Geeta, a Rishi like Vyas and Yogeshwar like Krishna philospher of Vedas and ashtang yoga is needed and not else. I have also written comments on Geeta based on Vedas and yoga philosophy,and is available for study.
Ram Suri: If they really exist on the earth itself, or if they do not exist at all anywhere else also, then why Lord Krishna would say, ” If you die in the battle field you will attain heaven and enjoy there .”.
Swami Ram Swarup: These words of Shri Krishna are from Vedas, especially SAAMVEDA mantra 1409. Tenth chapter (Geeta) of Vibhuti is based on knowledge from Rigveda 9/96/6, Saamveda mantra 944 that is why Shri Krishna says ,”VEDANAAM SAAMVEDAHA ASMI” and this lok too is based on knowledge of four Vedas. The fundamental is this that untill and unless knowledge is not given by anybody else, it cannot be attained. So when the previous universe met with pralaya, then at the time of present creation mentioned in every Vedas there was no spiritual master alive. Then every person was ignorant and lack of any kind of knowledge. So who gave the knowledge at that time to the human beings? Yajurveda mantra 31/7 and mandal 10 of Rigveda and several mantras of Atharvaveda and Saamveda say that God Himself being Almighty by his power originated the knowledge of four Vedas in the heart of four Rishis of unsexual creation. That is why Rishi Patanjali says in yog shahstra sutra 1/26 that the Almighty God is the first Guru of the Four Rishis, thereafter Rishis have been our Gurus as yet knowing Vedas. The people who still live in densy jungle and have no contact with the world is still ignorant. Because of the fact that nobody has yet given them knowledge that how to cook, wear clothes, make houses, electricity, science, etc., etc. a new born baby if kept in densy cave with all facility but without talking and without giving knowledge he will still remain ignorant and foolish. So God is our first Guru and we must follow his path of Vedas and thereafter we must study all spiritual books. Because only then the spiritual books will tell us truth. Now anybody else who even is not equivalent to the smallest atom of mud of the feet of Shri Krishna or Vyas Muni he starts saying about the deepest and golden spiritual holy book Bhagwat Geeta and others. Actually they used to tell the people while reading comments in Hindi or somehow in English of those to whom I have said latter. I have read comments on so many Geeta of the present saints and in one of them I read about Geeta shalok 4/29 where the famous saint says in his comments in Hindi in Geeta that Shri Krishna is giving here the knowledge of pranayaam. He describes that a yogi attains sidhi from pranayaam whereas original shalok 4/29, 30,31says about final liberation through pranayaam. Further the saint shows in his book that pranayaam is needed not, you will control your five senses,organs and mind if you worship only Shri Krishna. Please see that these wording of the saint does not appear in the original shalokas. Similarly in shalok 4/28 some explanation of Yajna have been mentioned by Shri Krishna and Yask Muni also says that “YAJAU VAI SHREASHTAMAM KARMAH” by which God is realised, but this saint in his comments says that God cannot berealised by any of the yajna mentioned in shalok4/28. How wonder is this? So most of the pepole read the comments of the saints in Hindi or English of the shalokas but physcologically they determine that they are studying Geeta. Hence the ignorance.
Ram Suri: Once the body dies, then where is the question of enjoying anything on earth if there is no heaven.
Swami Ram Swarup: Enjoyment is always gained by soul with the help of body. As per Vedas one takes birth in house of a king or the richest or in minister’s house etc., thisis his swarg based on previous pious deeds and he should again continue worship and pious deeds to realise God otherwise his swarg time will be finished like bankrupt and he will have to face the consequences under the Vedic law by God. Second one takes birth in a lowest and poorest house, where thousands of problems, illness, quarrels etc., are faced, this is his narak. Salvation is another stage apart from swarg and narak. And is also enjoyed by the soul through suksham sharir.
Ram Suri: When Lord Krishna says, “you will enjoy after death”, it means there is a place for soul to enjoy (although it is not recommended to aim for it in spiritualism).
Swami Ram Swarup: After death rebirth is there, otherwise salvation is there.
Ram Suri: This place is called heaven. For a person who does not believe these things, he will have any number of excuses.
Swami Ram Swarup: Believe and unbelieve matters and based on the decision of Vedas vide Yoga Shashtra sutra 1/7 please. Own views are not required in this matter. That is why Saam veda mantra 944 says ” KAVINAAM PADVI” i.e., God make Rishi to utter preach. I.e., the preach of Vedas though is from the mouth of a acharya but within acharya the God is making the sentences (pad). So own views are not required.
Ram Suri: In Gita, many instances are quoted to confirm the existence of different gods and lokas. For example, 8/16 clearly indicates the existence of various lokas, the highest lok being the Brahma lok in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Geeta shalok 8/16 is based on the knowledge of Yajurveda mantra 31/3 wherein it is mentioned that from one part (padah) of the God the universe is created having three lokas which are destroyed but above all three padah purushah (God) amritam divi i.e., immortal and above three lokas.
Ram Suri: A guess can be made here what would be the immediate reaction from people who do not believe the existence of other lokas regarding to this statement. They simply say, “well! this Brahma Lok is nothing but our earth”.
Swami Ram Swarup: Braham lok means where Braham lives according to Yajurveda mantra 40/1. It is said,”ISHAWASYAM IDAM SARVAM YAT KINCH JAGATTYAAM JAGAT” here two jagats are there.1. JAR JAGAT (THREE LOKAS) 2. Chetan jagat (souls) the God lives in these jagats, so these are Braham loka.
Ram Suri: If it is so, then why would Lord Krishna say that who so ever understands 1000 yugas as a day and another 1000 yugas as a night for Lord Brahma would understand the real meaning of day and night (8/17).
Swami Ram Swarup: It is in accordance with Rigveda mandal 10, Manu smriti 1/64 to 75, please relating to creation and counting of duration of the earth only.
Ram Suri: For the people of earth, 1000 yugas time period cannot be equal either to a day or a night. Therefore, these slokas clearly point out the existence of various lokas in space. The time period mentioned above refers to Brahma Lok. Similarly, Gita 9/20 confirms the existence of Indra Lok, while 9/21 confirms the existence of heaven.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas swarg lok/indra lok is the place where every facility of merriment from organs and perceptions are available on the earth. Secondly is the meriment of moksh after total liberation (swarg).
Ram Suri: Again, if some one says that this heaven is nothing but earth, then, in the same sloka, the term ‘mrutyu lok’ is said, meaning the mortal world – earth or similar planet. This indicates that heaven mentioned in this sloka is not earth, but a different lok in space.
Swami Ram Swarup: Mrityu lok means where death and birth are always there i.e., prithivi lok. This prithivi lok swarg for those who are pious but have not yet attined final liberation and narak for those who does sins and remains worried always with unlimited problems.
Ram Suri: In 9/25, Lord Krishna says that whoso ever worships gods, or petrus or bhutas would attain corresponding lokas temporarily, and adds that who so ever worships him (divine) will attain him permanently. Actually, this sloka clarifies three important points: The existence of various lokas in space (like gods, petru or bhuth)..
Swami Ram Swarup: There is no mention about bhoot, pret in the Vedas. In Yajurveda mantra 40/3 PTRETYA word is there which means after death and not bhoot, pret. Please see when jeevtma comes out of body the body is burnt. You say that the soul is God yet the God can not be a bhoot, pret. But Vedas do not say that soul is God. In chapter 39 of Yajurveda mantra 6 this soul after leaving the body goes to savita (surya), agnihi, vaayu, aaditya, chandrma, rituhu, marutah, brihaspatihi, mitrah, varunah, indrah, (vidyut) and vishwedevah (supreme qualities). Afterwards the soul comes down on the earth in the vegetables,water etc., to the place where he has to take the next body according to karmas. Accordingly the male by means of water, food etc., takes and soul goes and thereafter take birth through husband and wife. While remaining in the space in surya etc., the soul is controlled by sutratma vaayu and remains unconscious. So no time is left to be bhoot.
Ram Suri: Lord Krishna (divine) is superior than gods..
Swami Ram Swarup: Then who was superior before Shri Krishna i.e., before the birth of Shri Krishna as you said? However about your above saying you have not mentioned anyVedas mantra as proof. Please quote.
Ram Suri: Attainment of god’s lokas is temporary (as per first part of 8/16 sloka), while attainment of divine is permanent (as per second part of 8/16 sloka).
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote Veda mantra as a proof. Yajurveda mantra 32/1 says AGNI ADITYA VAAYU CHANDRMA SHUKRAM AAPAH AND BRAHAM ARE also the name of one God according to qualities.
Ram Suri: Similarly, one can find many references in the 11th chapter of Gita to confirm the existence of many lokas and gods. But the problem is that we never believe in Gita, which is the essence of Upanishads..
Swami Ram Swarup: As I already told that Geeta is based on the knowledge of four Vedas and Geeta is true. But the contents of the Geeta can be known only after studying the Vedas.
Ram Suri: Nor do we try to understand Gita or any other divine scriptures correctly. Coming to the point of difference between divine and gods, in Gita when ever, Lord Krishna talks to Arjun, it is referred by saying ‘Bhagawan uvacha’. On the other hand, when Arjun says or Sanjay says, or Dhrutarastra says something, then Gita says respective person’s uvacha. If both divine and god imply the same meaning, then Gita should have said ‘dev vuacha’ at least sometimes. Instead, all the times, it says ‘bhagawan vuacha’. Bhagawan Vyasji knows the difference between divine and gods, and hence selectively used the word ‘bhagawan vuacha’ in Gita. It means that divine is ultimate, and hence Divine is Bhagawan, while God is referred as Dev. Gods are many, like Indra Dev, Vayu Dev, Varun Dev, Agni Dev, Surya Dev, Chandra Dev etc. But divine is only one, without a second. Spirituality is concerned with divine, not with God(s), nor with prakruti. Scriptures always say that one has to worship and experience the divine. They never say to worship, experience and attain to gods or prakruti for salvation, as they are inferior to divine. It is some thing like this. If we know a person who knows every thing, then we know every thing. Similarly, if we worship divine who knows everything, then we will become divine by attaining divine. On the other hand, if we worship gods, we may utmost achieve to become another god, and this is nota permanent position. After sometime, it will be lost. If some one does not want to loose any position, then the only way for him is to attain divine. Hence all scriptures lay emphasis to worship and experience divine, but not gods or prakruti. This, however, does not mean that we are insulting gods or prakruti. We respect them very well. But our aim is always fixed on divine, while discharging our duties, as Lord Krishna says in Gita, “Tasmat sarvesu kalesu – 8/7.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote any Veda mantra.
Swamiji’s previous reply: So from prakriti, God creates universe. Souls take bodies. If there is only one God and there is no prakriti and no souls or souls and prakriti are God then how God is omnipresent and to whom God is commanding?
Ram Suri present response: I agree that divine creates universe from prakruti. The liberated souls will not take any birth. Commanding? Swamiji! Why do you think that divine wants to command any living beings? Do you think that divine commands some one to do a particular work, while he commands others not to do a particular thing?
Swami Ram Swarup: Divine (Almighty God ) does not want anything from human being or prakriti. God has no sankalp,vikalp, that is why he is God. But soul has sankalp and vikalp. In Vedas swarg means moksh. Commands means he controls the universe automatically without desire. Shevtashwaro Upnishad 6/8 refers.
Ram Suri: Divine never commands any one to do any thing. Do we have any proof for this statement? Yes. In Gita (5/14), Lord Krishna says that he does not give activities for people to do, or does not induce people to do actions nor does he create the fruits of people’s action. From this it is clear that divine never commands anyone. Then the question is that what divine does at all? Whenever there is decline in dharma in the world, he takes a form and establishes dharma. So that people can follow it. But he never commands any particular person to do any thing. But in a general way, divine tells people to do good activities through the scriptures. It is up to the people to follow them or not.
Swami Ram Swarup: As told above in Vedas God commands on universe otherwise the pious deeds of a man will be used by a sinner and sins will have to be used by a pious man but Rigveda says SHANNO MITRAH SHANNO VARUNAH SHAM ARYAMA. Here ARYMA means Supreme judge controlling and giving result of karmas of all human beingsautomatically.
Ram Suri: Divine never forces or commands anyone to do anything. This itself is an indication that we all have the free will. If one does good things, he will attain salvation. If not, he will go down in the ladder of evolution. For both these actions, divine is not responsible. Therefore, the question ‘to whom divine would be commanding’, as you have said above, will never arise at all.
Swamiji’s previous reply: If we say that for sometime God has been captured by illusion then again it is wrong due to the purest qualities of God mentioned in all Vedas and also said YajurVeda mantra 40/8 i.e., shukRam, akaya, shudham, apapvidham, samabhyahah,yatha tathyatah, arthan i.e., God is almighty and needs no assistance to create and command on prakriti and souls, God is bodiless, purest and there may be no any kind of illusion etc., in God or on God. God cannot do any sin and injustice actually God does not face any result of any deeds (karmas) as also said in yoga shashtra suta 1/24 but soul bears, so the difference between God and soul, and at last it is said in this mantra that God in real position has given the knowledge of every matters, prakriti, souls of himself by giving the knowledge throughVedas.
Ram Suri present response: Swamiji! No one says that divine will be captured by maya. Not even advaitins say this. Now, this is what is called maya on the part of people who misunderstands the context of a particular mantra or scriptures.
Swami Ram Swarup: Already explained above in the case of rope and snake please.
Ram Suri: Lord Krishna says in Gita (13/22) that when the people are in association with materialistic nature of prakruti, then they will enjoy the fruits of actions (good or bad). Therefore, these people identify themselves with the physical body, and thus have the feeling that they are doing or performing the actions.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please clarify the meaning of people. Is this not soul please?
Ram Suri: This is the ignorance and illusion on the part of such people. In reality, they are souls.
Swami Ram Swarup: That is illusion is on souls. And not on Almighty God.
Ram Suri: If the feeling of doer ship is there, then there is bondage. This is absent in case of jeevan mukta, and hence he is liberated. Why he is liberated? Because, he has experienced that he is different from the physical body, and that he is not the doer of actions of the physical body (prakruti). He experienced that he is the pure soul. Therefore, such a person will not take birth again (13/24 Gita).
Swami Ram Swarup: Doer is soul being alive otherwise please quote reference of Vedas.
Ram Suri: Therefore, your belief that advaitins had said that ‘divine is captured by maya or illusion’ is not correct. They never said this. We all agree that divine has all the best superlative qualities. The 1/24 sutra of Yoga Shastra you quoted above talks about the soul that is bonded in karma and ignorance.
Swami Ram Swarup: This sutra does not talk about soul but talks about Almighty God. Please study yog shahstra commented by Vyas Muni.
Ram Suri: As a result, it has attained a physical body, and is suffering from klesha, that is avidya; karma, that is, actions that are devoid of doer ship feeling or bad actions. If we ask a question, that who will suffer from the kleshas, then the answer is that those persons who do not follow dharma or pious life. Therefore, the soul in this person of the above sutra is bonded in a physical body at one place, and thus is not free. The conclusion is that the above reference you quoted is talking about a conditioned soul, where mind is controlling everything, but the mind is not controlled.
Swami Ram Swarup: I again say please study Yog shahstra commented by Vyas Muni as sutra 1/24 is related from previous sutras and in this sutra PURUSHVISHESH i.e., Purush means Purnn Parmeshwar according to 31 chapter of Yajurveda also and 40/8 mantra of Yajurveda and all Vedas. And in sutra 1/24 of Yog Shahstra Vishesh means special or Supreme. And he is Almighty God.
Ram Suri: Up to this point, the difference between jeevatma and divine exists. This difference is only temporarily present so long as there is ignorance.
Swami Ram Swarup: This difference is permanent please as quoted above.
Ram Suri: Once, this difference is gone by experiencing the divine by performing intense sadhana under the guidance of a qualified spiritual master, then the soul dissolves in divine and becomes one with him. Swamiji! Please understand the difference in various statements and the context.
Swamiji’s previous reply: My explanation do not support advaitvad, but supports tretvad i.e., God, prakriti and souls according to Vedas.
Swami Ram Swarup: You yourself telling that soul has illusion etc., but temporarily otherwise soul is God in you world. Otherwise soul is soul and God is God.
Ram Suri present response: All Upanishads, Gita and other holy scriptures confirm the existence of Divine, prakruti, and souls. Even advaita philosophy also believes in them. The essence of all holy scriptures is concerned with spirituality. Advaita philosophy is also concerned with spiritualism, that is, to understand the true relationship between souls and divine. Advaita philosophy, in accordance to all Upanishads, says that there is only one divine, and all souls are also divine..
Swami Ram Swarup: Please clarify when there is one divine then how all souls are divine.
Ram Suri:..and hence these souls will merge in divine for absolute salvation. All scriptures emphasize that we all need to experience divine by performing spiritual sadhana under the guidance of a qualified guruji. Please understand that all scriptures say the sadhakasto experience the divine in them. They never say the sadhakas to experience prakruti (physical bodies) for the sake of attaining salvation. Why? Because, the physical bodies, sun, moon etc are prakruti, and will have end one day or other. This means that out of 3 thing