Charvak: Swami ji Namaste. Yadi ishwar sachme hota hai to sansar me itna dukh kyon hai. Main 3 sal se schizophrenia se peedit raha. kai bar ishwar se prarthana ki. lekin ishwar ne meri prarthana kyon nahi suni ? Prarthana karna bekar hai kyonki ishwar hota hi nahi hai. Sab andhvishwas hai. Chanakya ne chanakya niti me kaha hai ki Ishwar to kewal bhaav me vidyaman hai. stephen Hawking ne bhi kah diya ki ishwar nahi hota punarjanm nahi hota. Main ab Charvak ko manane laga hun.
Swami Ram Swarup: Namasteji. Ishwar sukhswaroop hai dukh swarup kadapi nahin hai hamein vedon ka adhyayan karke yeh jaan lena chahiye ki sukh aur dukh insaan ke khud ke kiye hue pichhley janamon ke kramashaha punnya karma aur paap karma ka phal hai. Rigved kehta hai Ishwar kee bhakti ke bina sukh nahin. Ab insaan agar vedon ke anusar Ishwar bhakti naa karey aur paap aur punnya ka swarup na samajhey phalswaroop indriyon ke jhoote sukh aur lobh, laalach, kaam, krodh mein phans kar paap karam kerey to phir us insaan ko sukh kee ichchha karnee hee nahin chahiye kyunki Yajurved 7/48 ke anusar Ishwar ne paap karma karne wale ko dukh aur puunya karne wale jo sukh dena hotaa hai. Ishwar hai to srishti chal rahee hai. Ishwar srishti se nikal jaayega to pharun pralay ho jaayegee. Hamara durbhagya yeh hai ki hum Ishwar se nikali ved vanni (vedon) ka adhyayan nahi karte aur phalswarup agyani rehkar paap ko hee punnya samajh kar paap karke dukhon ke sagar mein gotey lagatey rehte hain . I paste my article below:-
REVERT BACK TO VEDAS
It is the essence of Vedic spiritualism that whenever an aspirant enters into it then learned acharya preaches him that Vedas are the divine voice of God, which by the power of God, are originated in the heart of four Rishis, at the beginning of each creation. Learneds who indulge in deep study of Vedas know that Vedas are alive knowledge which emanate directly from God and hence they have not been written by anyone on the earth, in the shape of a book. Since, the said knowledge is applicable to all humans right from the beginning of earth hence Vedas are not a sect.
Infact, Kapil Muni, after traditionally studying Vedas and realising the truth, after hard practice of Ashtang Yog, also states the said truth in his Sankhya shastra sutra 5/51 that Vedas are alive knowledge hence ved mantras wield the power and self-capability to make such faithful aspirants, who are involved in deep and sincere study of Vedas, to understand the meaning and idea of ved mantras. This is the reason that Kapil Muni states that Vedas are self-proof to justify the truth. To elaborate, knowledge given in ved mantra or any fact stated through ved mantras does not require to be validated/authenticated by other shastras or any other book [but like our Rishi-Munis, Rajrishis and their public used to study Vedas traditionally with faith and sincere efforts, being the Vedic order of Almighty God, for all human-beings, the said practice is not in vogue at present times].God knows when inhabitants of India would be able to adopt the said moral duties, entrusted by God, of studying and following the Vedas, which destroys all the effects of sorrows and makes our future bright with long life and also spreads international brotherhood along with other unlimited benefits.
Secondly, universe has been created about one Arab, ninety six crore, eight lakhs, fifty three thousand and one hundred and thirteen years ago.
So, logically, Vedas have also been created at this time-period. Rishi-Munis acquired Vedas’ knowledge by listening to Vedas traditionally from acharya and did agnihotra/yajyen, name jaap of God and Ashtang yog practice as preached in Vedas. In turn, they realised God and got the knowledge by doing pious deeds while leading the family life, making their future happy and bright, according to Vedas. Then they further educated people about the same because it has been the benevolent nature of every learned person, who gains Vedic knowledge and experiences divine pleasure, to share it with others. About five-six thousand years ago, Rishis wrote six shastras, Upnishads, Mahabharat (including Bhagwad Geeta) and Valmiki Ramayan much before other holy books, based on the knowledge of Vedas. All these great writers – the Rishis, have eulogised Vedas in their literary works and based on their experience have admitted that Vedas are the divine voice of God.
That is why, Kapil Muni in his Sankhya shastra sutra 1/66 and Patanjali Rishi in his Yog shastra sutra 1/7 have shared their experience to educate us that the preach of any Rishi (Mantradrishta Rishi) is also considered as a proof to reach at truth. And also the holy books written by the Rishis based on Vedic culture are also considered as proof called ‘Partah Pramann’, Vedas being Swatah Pramann. Is it not our bad luck that the said secrets of Vedas are now mostly unknown to people and at this juncture, so called preach of any modern saint (sant who is against the Vedas) which does not tally with Vedic culture and which is definitely considered by learned of Vedas as totally false/unauthentic, is being accepted happily by the innocent public? If we consider impartially then we would find that the said matter is definitely harmful to the society, being against the Vedas because it does not come within the parameter of Vedic authenticity. Now, question is that who will bell the cat?
Duly indulged in illusion and mostly intention being after the materialistic articles etc., hardly anybody spares the time to study the literary works of Rishis like Upnishads, Shastras, Nighantu, Ashtadhyayee, Shatpath Brahmin Granth and above quoted holy books which contain abundant proofs of ved mantras.
Hence, when one will fail to study these great literary works of Rishis, under the guidance of learned acharya of Vedas, then naturally anyone will cast doubt over the Vedas which implies non-awareness of Vedic knowledge. Nowadays, people study the so-called spiritual books written by ordinary people but not those written by Rishis. It shall not out of place to mention here that Atharvaved mantra 7/105/1 preaches us to study Vedas or to study the spiritual books written by Rishi-Munis. The mantra strongly stresses not to study such books which are written by ordinary people. This secret has been made unknown to the public by several saints, by stating that Vedas, Yajyen and yogabhyas are difficult and need not to be studied/performed. People do not know that God states to study Vedas and perform daily agnihotra/Yajyen, name jaap of God and practice of Ashtang yog under the expert guidance of learned acharya.
Due to ignorance of the same, people are not able to understand that they are doing sins by not obeying the God’s order of studying Vedas and doing yajyen etc. On the other hand, they are accepting the juicy lecture of saints, who are against the Vedas and who are mostly professional. Moreover, all the present sects along with their pious books have emerged about two thousand to two thousand and five hundred years ago. As compared to this, Vedas have been on this earth since One Arab, ninety six crore, eight lakhs, fifty three thousand and one hundred and thirteen years. As mentioned above, Vedas are not a book. That is why, it has become difficult to repose faith in Vedas, in the absence of deep study under guidance of learned acharya of Vedas and Ashtang Yog.
Yet, it is a well-known fact spread by the tapasvis, Rishis-Munis by their preach and above quoted spiritual books that Vedas are eternal and immortal knowledge which emanate directly from God. This fact is even supported by renowned scientists like Maxmuller and many others who believe in authenticity of Vedas. It is further a well-known fact that Vedas have been preserved in world libraries with respect and honour, accepting Vedas as first and the most ancient literature. I mean to say that Vedas are the first knowledge which came on the earth. It was spread orally through the tradition of acharya and disciple, right from the beginning of the earth, as mentioned above. So, Vedas were remembered by heart by everyone. About five thousand three hundred years ago, for the first time, Vyas Muniji, who himself remembered the Vedas by heart traditionally, wrote them on Bhojpatra for the benefit of mankind. He completed the said pious task on the day of poornnima, about five thousand three hundred years ago. Since, then the poornnima has been named and remembered as Vyas Poornnima. Further, when printing press came into existence in sixteenth century, the Vedas written on Bhoj patra by Vyas Muniji were printed in the form of book which is called “Samhita” and not ved. Samhita means collection of ved mantras which has been printed. Half of the intellectuals of the world believe Vedas to be the divine voice of God and yet half of the intellectuals believe that Vedas have been written by some great scientist who has no parallel to himself in the entire world. But learned of Vedas know that God is the scientist of all scientists and no one is born even equivalent to such God nor shall be born in future. Then what to talk about being above the God.
It is also pertinent to mention here that a part of Bheeshma parv of Mahabharat have been secluded, named and printed as Bhagwad Geeta (eighteen chapters). Infact, Yogeshwar Sri Krishna Maharaj has praised and eulogised Vedas in Bhagwad Geeta. The above stated facts are known only to learned of Vedas. The saints who are ignorant of the knowledge of Vedas are naturally ignorant of the Vedas’ knowledge contained in Bhagwad Geeta and are therefore compelled not to explain the shloka of Bhagwad Geeta, briefly and truly wherein the reference and truth of Ved mantras exists. Why? Because they have not studied Vedas.
However, most of the present literary works and most of the saints are reiterating the fact that Vedas are divine voice of God. In this connection, Almighty, omnipresent, formless God has already stated in Atharvaved mantra 12/5/40 that those who do not study Vedas but take a piecemeal (portion) of Ved mantras, only which suits them, by means of studying other books etc., or listening from anywhere else [not based on traditional study of Vedas] will be punished by me (God).
Isn’t it surprising that yet no one is taking the initiative to study Vedas. On the contrary, those deeds which are against the Vedas and promote blind faith are being done on large scale. To experience the truth, we will have to revert back to Vedas.
Andhvishwaas isliye hai kyunki vishwaas karne yogya to ved hee hai jinka adhyayan koi nahin karta isliye vedon aur mahabharat mein kaha- Nastiko Ved Nindakaha.
Arthat vedon kee ninda karne wala nastik hota hai.
Iska goodh bhaav yeh hai ki jo ved virudh bhakti karta hai weh nastik hai, Ishwar kehta hai Main ved mantron se kiye yajeyn mein sabkee prarthna suntan hoon. Ab agar koi aalsi banker Yajyen, Agnitotra na karey, vidwaanon se ved na suney aur prarthna karta rehey to Ishwareeya niyam ke anusa , Ishwar unkee prarthna nahin sunta aur insaan jhoota blame Ishwar par lagata hai. Ishwar to nyay karta hai. Channkya ne jis shloka mein kaha hai, weh shloka likh kar bheijein phir uska samadhaan kareingey kyunki vidwaan ke shloka ka arth aaj kal woh karne lagey hain jo khud vidwan nahin hotey. Isliye vidwanon ke kahey gyan ka aksar galat arth kiya jaata hai.
Har ek ko adheekar hai woh jis marzi ko maaney parantu Ishwar ne vedon mein kaha ki manushya kewal vedon mein kahe Nirakar Parmeshwar ko hee maaney aur vedanusar bhakti karey.
Harinathan: Swamiji we call god as deva and demons as asura ,but parsis call God as as(h)ura and demon as daeva why is this?
Swami Ram Swarup: In this matter, personal language and views are involved so nothing can be told. I paste my article as under-
If a matter is based on proof then it is accepted as true matter otherwise false. As regards proof, Yog Shastra sutra 1/7 states as under-
Five organs (eye, ear, nose, skin and tongue) get the knowledge by seeing, hearing, smelling, touching and tasting from outer materialistic world and pass the same to the Chitta. The Chitta passes the same to the Soul to experience and for disposal. Thus the knowledge collected by the five organs and the faculty which receives and contains the same is called the Prime Vritti of Chitta, which is further defined as Pratyaksh Pramaan i.e., the true knowledge experienced by Soul through the process of five organs and Prime Chitta Vritti is called Pratyaksh Pramaan (direct proof given by five organs). For example: Eye, the organ, sees the snake. The effect of knowledge of the snake is thus received and made on the Chitta. Now the Chitta’s Vritti truthfully decides that it is undoubtedly a snake. This is called Pratyaksh Pramaan Vritti (Direct proof from eye organ which can’t be wrong). Similarly, we have to know about the other four organs viz. nose, ear, tongue and skin on the matter of Pratyaksh Pramaan Vritti.
In this matter there may be some doubt also. For example, far away there is some darkness and little bit light also. We see and determine that there is a snake. But when we go near then we find there a rope instead of snake. The Prime Pratyaksh Pramaan Vritti gave this true knowledge about snake. So in this case to come to the conclusion about truth the Pratyaksh Pramaan (proof) is needed fundamentally and traditionally, which nowadays seems not to be considered. This results in spreading of blind faith. Vedas/Shastras do not depend only on the Pramaan Vritti but anyone of the three: Pratyaksh, Anumaan or Aagam Pramaan is required to discover truth brief of which follows.
When we see the destruction of matter or experience sorrows, and even death before us, this Pramaan Vritti helps to determine that the world, and even our body at one time is liable to be destroyed. In this matter Lord Krishna also says in Bhagwat Geeta 2/27 that death is certain for those who are born. Vyas Muni in Mahabharat says that it is strange that the people daily see the death but the remaining alive people are so busy in their routine that they become oblivious to the fact that even they have to die one day and are so much indulged in their work, as if they will remain alive forever. So if, by virtue of Pramaan Vritti, one learns about the sorrows and death etc. and become an ascetic and starts worship, Yoga practice etc., then this Pramaan Vritti is called “Aklishta” (gives no sorrows). And on the other hand, if somebody is attracted towards materialistic world and is involved in bad deeds/sins then this Pramaan Vritti is called “Klishta” (give rebirth and sorrows etc.)
It is Pratyaksh Pramaan. But see that in the matter of realisation of God the Pratyaksh Pramaan can’t be produced, God being unmanifested. Yajur Ved Mantra 40/8 also says that God is omnipresent and unmanifested. God is beyond description and beyond imagination and is not liable to be realised by means of any organs. Here Vedas arise the necessity of Yoga philosophy to realise God.
Second is Anumaan Pramaan Vritti. When we recognize the true knowledge about the unseen matter by seeing its symbol/symptom then the “Main Vritti” which gets the true knowledge is called Anumaan Vritti. It is Anumaan Pramaan. This type of knowledge of a matter is based on guess, by seeing the symbol of the matter. For example, far away we see the smoke in the sky then we guess that surely the smoke is the result of burning fire. Here we do not see the burning fire, but on the basis of smoke only we come to know the truth that there is fire. Similarly, when we see sun, moon, earth, animals and sky etc., then by virtue of Anumaan Vritti we guess that all the said matter cannot be created by man but certainly God has created the same. This is called Anumaan Pramaan Vritti and this knowledge from Anumaan Pramaan is attained by “Main Vritti”.
In Yoga Shastra the words of Main Vritti has been used specially by Vyas Muni in his comments. The reason behind is that some Vritti may create misunderstanding also but the Vritti which gives knowledge without any doubt that Vritti is called “Main Vritti”. For example it was told above that from a far distance when we see the rope then we have doubt that it may be a snake, so this is the Vritti with doubt. Again when we went near the rope and got the truth about snake then the Vritti which has given the true knowledge of snake is called “Main Vritti”. When the soul realizes with the help of this Vritti that world is destructible and become ascetic and starts studying Vedas and doing yoga practice then this Anumaan Pramaan Vritti is called “Akilshta” (gives no sorrows). On the other hand when we are entangled with illusion and attachment etc., and do sins then this Anumaan Pramaan Vritti becomes “Klishta”(gives sorrows). Description of Aagam Pramaan Vritti will follow.
We have learnt about Pratyaksh and Anumaan Pramaan Vritti.
Now we come to Aagam Pramaan. Actually these Vrittis give proof to know the truth. It is very much clear in our Vedas/Shastras that whatever truth about auspicious deeds or worship is to be set up, we will have to give proof of anyone Vritti out of the said three Vrittis. If our worship/auspicious deeds come under these Vrittis, then it is true and whatever we do if it does not tally with the said Vrittis then it becomes untrue. However, nowadays due to lack of study of Vedas/Shastras, mostly we do not consider the said traditional knowledge of Vedas.
There are two kinds of Aagam Pramaan Vritti:
2. Aapta Purush (the wiser who learnt Vedas and did Yoga)
Suppose we are worshiping/discharging our duties then if the method of our worship etc., is mentioned in Vedas then it is called Aagam Pramaan Vritti.
Similarly, if our said worship and deeds are accepted by an alive wiser who has studied Vedas and got final liberation then it is also called Aagam Pramaan Vritti. In this connection Vyas Muni also says when the Aapta Purush (wiser) delivers the knowledge to any other person i.e., the knowledge, which he himself practised/adopted in his life – like study of Vedas and attaining final liberation then the second person gets the knowledge. Then the faculty, which receives the knowledge from the Aapta Rishi is called Aagam Pramaan Vritti. Vyas Muni further says that basically preacher of the Vedas is Almighty God who is always exempted from doing any deed, impression of bad deeds etc., and false knowledge but the human beings are always indulged in the said three qualities.
Therefore the knowledge of the four Vedas which emanates from Almighty God is self-proof and comes under Aagam Pramaan. It means in the Ved Mantra whatever has been preached requires no proof – Vedas being self proof which come under Aagam Pramaan. The second Aagam Pramaan is the preach given by the alive Aapta Purush (wiser i.e., spiritual master). Vyas Muni here says that who has studied Vedas, done Tapsya and done Ashtang Yoga practice and thus has realized God, he is a true impartial preacher. In Vedas this kind of Aapta Purush (wiser) is called Mantra Drishta Rishi.
Mantra Drishta Rishi is the Rishi who has seen the Ved Mantras with in him during Samadhi/Salvation. So the preach of such Rishi is called Aagam Pramaan. The knower of God and who saw the Ved Mantras were Maharishi Vyas, Patanjali, Vishwamitra etc., they knew the true religion and even false one also. They knew the deepest and true meaning of the Mantras, its knowledge and science properly and that is why they were called Aapta Purush (wiser).
The six Shastras written by the Rishi based on Vedas are also true and comes under “Partah Pramaan”. At present also the matters, knowledge and deeds etc., which comes under Aagam Pramaan are only true. When we follow the preach based on Aagam Pramaan and becomes Ascetic and follow the true path then it is called AKlishta Aagam Pramaan Vritti (gives no sorrows) and everything against this is Klishta Vritti which gives always sorrows.
So we must learn Yoga philosophy which is based on traditional Aagam Pramaan Vritti. When an aspirant studies Yoga philosophy and practices Ashtang Yoga practically then only he attains Samadhi and realizes Almighty God. Therefore mere study, learning by heart thereof and then speaking before public does not come under Aagam Pramaan Vritti and is thus against the Vedas. So we must not praise lectures, especially on spiritualism, which are based on mere study only.
I quote a story here. There was a hunter who had hit a parrot. The wounded parrot fell before a Saint who nursed him. The saint used to preach the parrot that “Oh! Hunter I have understood your tricks and I shall not be caught again in your net.” After few days when the parrot became alright the Saint freed him. Once the Saint saw a hunter in the jungle with broken heart and perplexed face. On inquiring, the hunter told the saint that he (hunter) used to come in the jungle for hunting but today he saw the group of parrots reciting that they have known my tricks and they will not be caught in the net again. Then the Saint was surprised but he still told the hunter to go to the site of parrots and to spread his net as usual. The hunter obeyed and astonished to see that every parrot was speaking the lesson “Oh! Hunter I have understood your tricks and I shall not be caught again in the net”, but all the parrots were flying down and were being caught there. So, it concludes that mere studying of spiritual teaching like parrot will not save us from indulging in sins. The parrot became habitual of reciting the above preach but did not know about the fact that what is net and who is hunter? So preach requires Aagam Pramaan.
It means the statement/preach of a Rishi/Muni is always considered true and views of ordinary human-beings if do not tally with Vedas and that of Rishi-Munis then those are considered false. It is an eternal fundamental law. In this connection, Rigved mantra 7/104/14 states that if a person follow the views of false ordinary person then it generates problems and God punishes. Shatpath Brahmin Granth written by Yagvalkya also states the behave of Rishi-Muni, learned of Vedas is always true and those who behave in falsehood they are called ordinary man. Now, we must understand please that the epic i.e., Mahabharat and Valmiki Ramayan have been written by Maharishi Vyas and Maharishi Valmikiji respectively. So, there is no doubt that above quoted epics written by the Rishis are 100% true. However, learned of Vedas do not accept the authenticity about the Tulsi Ramayan because at some places it differs from Valmiki Ramayan.
I would also like to state about Mahabharat epic that several false shlokas have been added in it. In this regard, I paste my article as under-
There is a statement by King Bhoj in his book “Sanjeevini” about which Maharishi Dayanand Saraswati too states:
“Vyasji wrote 4400 shlokas of mahabharat to which another 5,600 authentic shlokas were added by the disciples of Vyasji. During the reign of Maharaja Vikramaditya another 20,000 shlokas were added. Further Maharaja Bhoj says that during the reign of his father 25,000 and during half of his life time 30,000 more shlokas have been added to the Mahabharat book. If this process of addition of shlokas continues then the time is not far when Mahabharat book would have to be compared to the burden loaded on a camel.”
There have been false additions to Mahabharat epic from time to time.
I would also like to advise you to listen my ACD- Ram Katha worth Rs.35/-. It will be sent to you on receipt of your postal address, if you desire.
Sorry, the list of descendents of Pandavas till last Hindu emperor is a lengthy job which cannot be attended to right now. Therefore, cannot be mentioned. However, if you study Valmiki Ramayan and Mahabharat epic commented by Shri Jagdishwaranand Saraswatiji and available with M/S Vijay Kumar Hassanand, Nai Sadak, Delhi-110006, if you desire, then you would be able to get immense knowledge.