Pawan Kumar Aryan: Adaryog Swami Ji: Here are you,”Swami Ram Swarup: Vedas, Geeta, Kuran, Bible, Gurugranth sahib and every sect accept a formless God who creates, nurse and destroy the universe…..”
I have read all mentioned books in hindi and English languages. Kuran and Bible say, God created man in his form please, but you claim contrary to what Kuran and Bibal say. Are you at fault or you are going to proov that Kuran and Bible say God is formless.
Swami Ram Swarup: Yes, I tell that all accept that God is Formless. As regards, creation of man in a form, that is a separate matter which relates to creation; as mentioned in Rigveda mandal 10, sukta 129 and Yajurveda Chapter 31; after completion of the period of final destruction, God creates non-sexual creation. So, how He creates, is a long subject. In this connection, I would ask you to read my books “Vedas – A Divine light part II” and “Protect the Holy Cow- say Vedas” worth Rs.121/- and Rs. 40/- excluding postal charges, on receipt of your postal address. If you desire, you can study and if you do not desire, you may deny. Secondly, I never tell anything on my own, I give reference of ved mantras and based on the knowledge of Vedas, I try to brief the matter.
Kumar: Swamiji, Sat Sat parnaam. Thanks for teaching me in detail. As you told that Gita gyan is Veda’s gyan. One confusion is there. In Ch.12(Bhakti Yoga), it is mentioned:- “Bhakti Yoga
Arjuna said: 12:1. Who is more successful in yoga: they who are full of love to You or those who worship the Incognizable Unmanifest?
The Blessed Lord said: 12:2. They who fix the mind on Me, devoted to Me, and constantly aspire to Me — they are more successful in yoga.
12:3. They who worship Indestructible, Untold, Unmanifest, Omnipresent, Incognizable, Immutable, Unmovable, Eternal,
12:4. who conquered their indriyas, who equally calm about everything, who are happy about the good of others — they too come to Me.
12:5. But for those who direct thoughts to the Unmanifest this achievement is more difficult; it is harder for them to progress.
12:6. They who renounced the maya for the sake of Me and keep concentration on Me, practicing yoga, O Partha,
12:7. — them I promptly rise above the ocean of births and deaths, for they dwell with their souls in Me.”
This suggest that to worship unmanifest formless God is mmore difficult and to worship manifested God, Lord Krishna is a easy way to get the progress etc. What do you suggest on a/c of it? Can we follow Gita to follow Vedas? Chran Saprsh. Kumar
Swami Ram Swarup: My blessings to you. You are welcome, please. Most of the comments (given by you) on original shlokas of Geeta do not tally with the eternal knowledge of Vedas, which emanates direct from God. Sri Krishna maharaj was the philosopher of Ashtang Yoga and Vedas’ knowledge, so all his shlokas relate to Vedas’ philosophy. Yajurveda mantra states- Na tasya Pratima Asti” i.e., Almighty God cannot be measured. Further, Rigveda mantra 6/50/14 states “Ajah Ek paat” i.e., God does not take birth and is therefore, also away from death. His divine qualities, Power and deeds are unchangeable. As Yajurveda mantra 40/8 states that He does not have body and no hole can be pierced into him (impenetrable) etc., so His idol cannot be made. I mean to say that there are several ved mantras which prove that God is formless, almighty, omnipresent, creates, nurses and destroys the universe. Therefore, according to eternal Vedic philosophy, God cannot take avtar. In this connection, I paste my articles below-
God is only one who creates the universe and no other can create the universe except God. Please think deeply is anyone except God empowered for creation, etc.? The pious qualities of God are unlimited whereas qualities of soul, which resides in human body, are limited. That is why He is God. This fact is also mentioned by Rishi Patanjali in his Yog shastra sutra 1/24, “KALEASHKARAMVIPAKASHYAIHI APRAMRISHTAHA PURUSHVISHESHAHA ISHWARAHA” i.e., He who is not indulged in any sorrows/sufferings (kalesh), in any kind of deed (karma) and result thereof (vipakya), He is supreme in souls and is called Ishwar (God), whereas, soul is indulged in all the said matters according to deeds done in previous, and in the present life. So this is also a difference between God and souls and therefore soul can never be God based on the different qualities.
Amongst unlimited qualities of God, few may be enumerated-that God creates, nurses and destroys the universe. God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent and Almighty, beyond description, beyond imagination, and beyond calculation. Nobody on the earth can deny such qualities, but these qualities are to be discussed and considered deeply and he who does the same is called MUNI as per Vedas and shastras.
Let us think over one quality of God – Being Almighty. Almighty means God has all powers and thus God, to control the universe and to do any kind of deed for the same, can not be dependent on another, at any cost, being Almighty. Again shastras say, which is a true saying too, that there must be reason behind for any creation, matter etc. God is a reason to create the universe. Parents are the reason to give birth to a child. Ravana took Sita forcefully which became a reason for war between Shri Ram and Ravana etc. So as per Vedas there must be a reason of avtar and after studying eternal knowledge of Vedas and thinking deeply, there seems no reason to take avtar by Almighty God. As in Yajurveda mantra 2/26, so is in Shwetashwataropnishad shlok 6/8 wherein it is mentioned that there is no reason to form a God and thus God is also formless i.e., nobody can make God but God creates universe from non-alive prakriti. Secondly the said Upnishad says that the deeds of God of creation, nursing, and destruction of universe are eternal, natural, and automatic. So naturally God needs no avtar to destroy Kalyug, earth, or devils etc., being Almighty i.e., God has all powers and is independent. Not God but only His powers are enough to control, create, nurse, destroy the universe. That is why Upnishad says that God has no desire to create etc., but it is eternal and natural and this sort of desire is named “IKSHAN” and not desire to create etc.
Suppose God has to kill a devil and He takes avtar and God kills the devils by arrow etc. It means God is not Almighty and independent because God has taken help of Avtar (Human body) and arrow, gun, etc., which is impossible.
This all I have told based on fundamental law of eternal knowledge of four Vedas. Yet if anybody says about avtar then it is their own views and they are satisfied with their views and can not be commented because they could have been realizing at their own but so far as eternal knowledge of Vedas is concerned, Avtar is not possible.
God is formless
Being formless there is no need of statue or temple of God according to Vedas. As a matter of fact, you, I or every human being, lives in a body. Body is separate, we are called souls. Vedas say soul has no form even. Then also we know each other. For example even if you have not seen the photograph of King Akbar then, you can know Akbar by means of the study of his qualities. So is the case with the God. If an aspirant really goes to his Guru and listens Vedas like Shri Ram, and ancient kings and their public then he will be able to know hundred percent about formless God. Then comes realization for which Vedas (especially Samveda) says that he who performs Yajyen, does jaap (according to Vedas) and practises Ashtang Yoga Philosophy while remaining in family like Shri Ram etc., he sure realizes ,being eternal law.
If we will meditate concentrating outside our body which is also against Vedas/Ashtang Yoga Philosophy, then our attention will always naturally remain outside i.e., attached with outer world i.e., decoration/music/dances etc. In that case subject matter of God will be over. It will be converted into spending fun, doing dances and singing attractive songs by ladies and gents, which is totally against Vedas. Thus the chapter of praising God, True Acharya, Rishi-Munis, performing Yajyen, practice of Ashtang Yoga, eternal knowledge of Vedas etc., will be over.
It is also baseless to say that study of Vedas and practice of yoga philosophy is difficult. It is self made story because Vedas are also called Shruti i.e., Vedas are to be listened first and not to be studied. So to listen to the Vedas, a learned Acharya is needed. The Acharya will explain the Ved mantras in the Yajyen in your own language i.e., in English or Urdu etc., and for an aspirant to do asan, pranayaam, meditation etc., is also not difficult. It is all difficult for those human beings, including present false prophets, (who are against the Vedas), who are lazy, can’t awake early in the morning to listen Vedas and fail to do practice of yoga philosophy. Those people are always after money, materialistic articles and pomp and show etc.
Vedas are not written or spoken by God. This knowledge is emanated from God and is originated in the heart of four Rishis as stated above. God is Almighty i.e., He has all powers. So He needs no assistance to do deeds of universe. In human body alive soul resides and soul is dependent, soul requires mouth to speak, eye to see, hand to write etc., etc. but not God. From His power God originates the knowledge of Vedas in the rishis without writing, or speaking etc. Vedas’ knowledge is divine. The fundamental of the Vedas is this that it was not written or spoken. The knowledge by the power of God was originated about one Arab 96 crore, 8 lakh and 53,111 years ago. Then first time the four rishis of nonsexual creation started pronunciation of the mantras by the power of God. God wanted them to know word meanings and sense of the mantras and therefore the rishis knew all. Then first time the four rishis started pronunciation of the mantras. They taught the mantras to other ignorant people. Then more rishis were produced who knew the Vedas by heart by listening only. There was no paper, ink or pen there. The Vedas were being learnt orally and traditionally this process is yet in force. But mostly not by heart but taking help of the printed book. So printed books are not called Vedas but these are called samhita.
Samhita means the collection of Ved mantras. Therefore Present printed books cannot be considered as Vedas and will never be in future, but samhita. Kapil Muni throws light on this point in his Sankhya Shastra sutra 5/48 that when a rishi does tapsya in the shape of Yajyen, study of Vedas, practice of Ashtang Yoga then the Ved mantras still (now also) originate in heart of the Rishi and the rishi pronounces the mantras. Those mantras are called Vedas, which emanate from God. So Vedas must first be listened (study) from alive Acharya (Guru who knows Vedas). Then only Samhita (books of Vedas) can help.
In view of the above, Yogeshwar Sri Krishna maharaj was not an avtar. He was an adorable dignitary and being a Yogeshwar, formless, almighty God who is omnipresent, manifested within him.
So, according to Vedas, yogeshwar Sri Krishna maharaj was equivalent to God but was not formless God, who never takes birth. So, based on the said fundamental law of Vedas, which are unchangeable (Rigveda mantra 3/56/1 refers), the meaning of the shlokas of chapter twelve of Bhagwad Geeta (based on Vedas’ philosophy) differ as to what you have told. Translation of the above quoted shlokas of Bhagwad Geeta, being a lengthy work cannot be briefed here. So, I would advise you to study my book- Bhagwad Geeta- Ek vedic Rehasya (in Hindi), excluding postal charges, on receipt of your postal address, containing words, meanings and idea of each shloka of Bhagwad Geeta if you desire.
However, I quote idea of shloka 12/1 as under-
Idea- First shloka of chapter 12 of Bhagwad Geeta has references to context with preach related to worship of formless God given in eleventh Chapter of Bhagwad Geeta by Yogeshwar Sri Krishna maharaj. Yogeshwar Sri Krishna maharaj slightly showed the universal form (Viraat swaroop) of formless God within him (Sri Krishna Maharaj) through his power of Yoga philosophy. At this stage, Arjun became doubtful that whether Sri Krishna maharaj is God, whom he should worship or he (Arjun) should worship the formless God i.e., based on the doubt. Arjun put forth the question in Bhagwad Geeta shloka 12/1 that whether he should worship formless God or worship Yogeshwar Sri Krishna maharaj.
Idea of the given shloka is that through the power of Yoga, Sri Krishna maharaj made Arjun to realize the universal form (Viraat roop) of God within Sri Krishna maharaj and in many places he said to Arjun, that he should dedicate the deeds to Sri Krishna maharaj and become his steadfast devotee alone etc. Hence, Arjun based on his intellect, is questioning Sri Krishna maharaj that Oh! Sri Krishna maharaj, being in human body, you are visible to the world. Oh! Sri Krishna maharaj, there are two types of devotees. One, who while living with you serve you and gain spiritual knowledge from you; they serve, respect, adore you. Whether the said type of devotees are knower of ashtang Yoga philosophy which is mentioned in Vedas? And the other type of worshippers are those who based on eternal Vedic philosophy, worship God while doing yajyen, name jaap and hard practice of ashtang Yoga and try to realize eternal, formless, omnipresent God.
Idea of Arjun was to know that out of the above quoted two types of devotees, who knows the eternal and everlasting ashtang yoga philosophy which is mentioned in eternal knowledge of Vedas which emanates directly from God.
So, Arjun asks that Oh! Sri Krishna maharaj, in your preach, you have proclaimed yourself as the creator and destroyer of universe. So, whether the devotee who worships you (in form) know the Ashtang Yoga philosophy or the second type of devotee knows the Ashtang yoga philosophy who worships omnipresent, formless God by doing yajyen, name jaap of God.
Here, the misunderstanding of Arjun is that he presumes Sri Krishna maharaj as God. On the other hand, he had listened to Vedas, wherein it has been stated that there is only one, eternal and everlasting, omnipresent, Almighty God, based on the knowledge which he listened from Rishi-Munis and also based on the fact that Arjun performed Agnihotra and Yajyen along with his brothers and parents. But when Yogeshwar Sri Krishna maharaj showed to him the divine power of eternal Yoga philosophy, Arjun trembled and was bewildered. So, to clarify his misunderstanding that whether Sri Krishna maharaj was God Himself or God is formless, who never takes birth, he put forth the question to Sri Krishna maharaj that amongst the above quoted two types of devotees who are the ones who know the yoga philosophy i.e., does he knows the yoga philosophy who worships you or the one who worships formless, Almighty God.
12/2- Idea of the shloka 12/2 is that- Oh! Arjun, the devotee who “Maam upasate” means who do my upasana (sort of worship). Now, we have to think what is the meaning of upasana according to Vedas. The meaning of upasana has been quoted above also i.e., who reside with me and do the worship according to my preach, while paying respect and services towards me.
Next word is “Shraddhya Parya” i.e., Param Shraddha i.e., most supreme faith on eternal truth. Actually, the meaning of shraddha mentioned in Rigveda mantra 10/151/1 is “Shrat+Dha= Shraddha”. Shrat= eternal truth. Dha means full concentration/faith without any misunderstanding. So, the meaning of Shraddha is “faith on eternal and everlasting truth” i.e., formless, Almighty God and Vedas. The meaning of “Nityuktaha” is all time contact with formless, Almighty God who creates, nurses and destroys the universe. Thus, Sri Krishna maharaj here states that he who knows the above quoted secrets of vedic philosophy he only knows the yoga philosophy. Here, the word “maam” relates to formless God because every Yogi who knows Vedas has practiced ashtang yoga and as a result has attained Dharammegh Samadhi (has realized God) will never tell the disciple/devotees to worship him (the Yogi). The Yogi will always tell to worship formless, Almighty God, based on eternal, Vedic philosophy. Now, the matter is becoming lengthy. So, it is difficult to quote all references of Bhagwad Geeta here, as quoted above, I would advise you to study my detailed comments on Srimad Bhagwad Geeta, holy book written in the shape of book Bhagwad Geeta- Ek Vedic Rehasya Part II worth Rs.400/-, excluding postal charges.
In the said Bhagwad Geeta Part-II, you will be able to read explanation of every shloka based on Vedic philosophy from chapter 7-12, in detail. By the grace of almighty God, the book has become famous in India as well as abroad.