Devesh: I am recent member on this website. I am an engineer by profession. I have been scientifically inclined, and an aryasamaji by birth, i.e. my father is an astute Arya samaji. I also agree to lots of his teachings which are logical. But there are few things which I disagree to being a science student. I would like to have a long discussion with you on many topics.
Lets start first with the existence of God. Why do you feel that there is one param atama, and we as Atmas, what if there are more than one param atamas governing various Galaxies or systems, as we are yet unaware of the boundary of the space.
Also, isn’t it really cruel that there is only one who calls himself paramatama and others have to worship him, doesn’t it feel as if he is more inclined towards buttering, rather than truth, else why do pooja havan, why waste time in such things.
I have many more questions, I could go on writing them. Others for later.
Swami Ram Swarup: I appreciate your views regarding disagreement. Rigveda states that if the views are not clear then question should be put forth before any acharya as Arjun did as per Bhagwad Geeta, otherwise the tradition of blind faith would generate. Vedas are self-proof which say God is one. Based on Vedas, all six shastras, upnishads and ancient holy granths written by ancient Rishis-Munis state that God is one and is ever unchangeable. For example- Rigveda mantra 6/50/14 states, God is “Ajah Ek paat”. ‘Aj’ means who never takes birth, so never dies. ‘Ek Paat’ means He remains unchangeable. Yajurveda mantra 40/8 states- “Sah Prayagaat Shukram Akaaya………….. Avarnnam”
If we see that God is “Swayambhu” i.e., neither any material makes the God nor anything is made from God. So, we will conclude from the above quoted Yajurveda mantra that God is also Almighty. Thus, He has all powers. Vedas also tell that God has unlimited powers, that is why, He is called Almighty God. Vedas tell, He is Almighty, omnipresent, eternal, everlasting, unchangeable, unchallengeable, beyond description, beyond imagination. Shwetashwataropnishad shloka 6/8 states that His divine knowledge, power and deeds are natural i.e., occur at stipulated time automatically and no one exists who is either equivalent or above the God.
Yajurveda mantra 31/3 states that God is beyond His creation. I mean to say that God is beyond His creation. I mean to say that God and the Vedas’ knowledge which emanates from Him are divine and not worldly science and Vedas states that every atom which is made undergoes a change every second and one day it disappears i.e., changes its shape. Why? Because every worldly matter is made of Prakriti i.e., it is made of some matter. It is a fundamental law and is scientific that such matters are destroyed (disappear) change its form one day. But you see God, souls, Vedas and Prakriti are not made from any matter. So, the said matters are eternal, everlasting and unchangeable as is also stated in Atharvaveda mantra 10/8/1. That is why, God was Lord in past, is in present and shall ever remain in future. He will ever remain unchangeable Lord of universe who creates, nurses and destroys the universe and again creates. But as usual, the worldly kings always change, they meet with death also. Further, worldly kings command over limited public of their respective nations but God is supreme king and commands all over the universe. It shall not be out of place to mention here that there is only one monarch for one nation. Now, when the universe is created by fraction of God’s power that works into non-alive prakriti, there is just one Lord, the Almighty God who rules over entire universe. Hence, several atmas (souls) exist and God is Param atma i.e., quite separate from the souls.
Secondly, Vedas are eternal knowledge which emanate direct from God in the beginning of the creation. In this connection, I paste my article below for your study and comments-
God has made universe and blessed us human body to do pious deeds only. He has not made any heaven or hell. All have to face the result of their deeds, good or bad here only, even by taking rebirth. (Rigveda mantra 10/135/1,2)
God has not only made universe but has also given knowledge of four Vedas where answers to your and everyone’s questions have been given. There are four Vedas:
1. Rig Veda – gives knowledge of science, matter of the universe like sun, moon, air body etc., etc.
2. Yajurveda – gives knowledge of all the deeds and duties to be performed by men or women, students, leaders, king, agriculturist etc., etc., etc.
3. Samveda – gives knowledge how to worship God who gives peace and long happy life etc. In this way, details of Yoga philosophy, qualities, supreme deeds and nature of the God are also given.
4. Atharvaveda – gives details of God, medical science and details of medicine etc.
Actually in four Vedas there is unlimited knowledge. Yajurveda mantra 40/8 says that God is everywhere, is Almighty, formless, devoid of nervous system, purest, away from sins and away to face any result of any karmas (deeds), knows every soul, knows what is in everyone’s mind, no body has made God, but God creates universe, has given the eternal knowledge of four Vedas and always gives the said knowledge at the beginning of every universe to know the science and deeds to all concern. Similarly four Vedas say about God that God is an omnipresent, omniscient, formless, beyond imagination and beyond calculation. Actually God has unlimited qualities. There is only one God who creates, nurses, destroys the universe and again creates. Atharvaveda mantra 4/1/1 also says that God gives the knowledge of Vedas at the beginning of the earth to four Rishis of nonsexual creation. And thereafter only public listens Vedas through Rishis Munis as yet and become learned. Rig-Veda gives knowledge of Almighty, Yajurveda gives knowledge of karmas (deeds), Samveda tells about worship-Yoga philosophy and Atharvaveda about medicines and God. Actually all Vedas commonly says about God also, so this is about Vedas in short. But the knowledge of Vedas is endless.
It is a fundamental law that knowledge is always given by somebody otherwise knowledge can’t be gained at any cost. If a new born baby is nursed well in a dense jungle and is not educated then he will not be able to gain any knowledge. So we have to think about the origin of the knowledge prevalent in the world today. In this connection all Vedas themselves say that God gives this knowledge to four Rishis. As has also been said by Rishi Patanjali in yoga shastra sutra 1/26, God is first Guru of the four Rishis.
Yajurveda mantra 31/7 also refers. This is all in short about Vedas.
The Vedas are not a book, rather it is a knowledge originated in the heart of Rishis. At the time of beginning of the earth those Rishis preached Vedas by mouth and all others remembered the same by mouth at that time there was no pen, pencil, paper, etc. This process of studying Vedas by mouth remained till Mahabharata time. Muni Vyas too remembered Vedas traditionally by mouth. Then Muni Vyas first time wrote the Vedas on Bhoj patra about 5300 years ago. In 16th century when printing press came into existence then the Vedas were printed. Still Vedas are not those which have been printed but Vedas are those which are preached by mouth by an Acharya/yogi and the printed Vedas are called Sanhita.
Now if somebody worships a statue etc., i.e., its their own creation please but Vedas deny. According to Vedas the best worship of the God is Yajyen (Yajna) for which all Vedas are self-proof. Yajurveda mantra 31/16 says that the learned persons worship God by Yajyen.
So many people have asked me that most of the scholars/preachers of different religion state that their religion incorporates all matters of the world including science. What about Vedas? I wrote so many Ved Mantras describing science matters therein. For example, Yajurvaveda Mantra 3/6 states “Ayam Gauhu Swaha Pitram Puraha Prayan Mataram Prishnihi Aakrameet Asadat”.
Meaning= This earth revolves around the Sun in the space and it also rotates on its own axis. Vedas are eternal like God because Vedas emanate from God. Now, according to Vedas, this present creation is about 1 Arab, 96 crores, 8 lakh and about 53,000 years old. So are the Vedas but as said in Rigveda Mantra 10/191/3 the present creation is same as was the previous one and this process of creation is eternal. So are the Vedas which emanate from eternal God. This all concludes that Vedas are the oldest in this creation also and no other book of science, maths or pertaining to spiritualism is written before Vedas.
Like the above example of rotation and revolution of earth, the significance of whole present science is mentioned in Vedas. We can see that whatever is happening in the universe, is all according to the Vedas. For example, occurance of six seasons, actions of Sun, moon, process of death, birth, worship, yoga philosophy, atomic energy, agriculture, animal husbandry, knowledge of politics, administration, architecture, solar energy, knowledge of home appliances like mixer, grinder, business rules, about men, women, children, marriage, Brahamcharya, education, clothes etc., etc., i.e., knowledge right from a straw to Brahma is all in Vedas. God is Almighty and has unlimited powers. So through His power He is able to originate the knowledge of Vedas in the heart of four Rishis without pencil, paper, help of mouth or any other worldly assistance.
We, i.e., the whole world depends on Almighty God but God is forever independent. That is why, He is God. We are the souls who reside in human bodies. We need assistance of senses, perceptions, mind and body to do deeds but not God.
Nowadays, so many saints are writing books. What is the background to right their books? Background is clear that they have first studied or listened the preach from their Gurus, keeping aside the matter of truth or falsehood. And after studying or listening the same, they became able to write the books. So this is also fundamental law, based on which, the ancient Rishis first listened Vedas and when they became learned then only they wrote the Vedic books like Valmikee Ramayana, six shastras, Mahabharata (Bhagwad Geeta), Upanishads, etc., etc. So, first the knowledge of Vedas is initiated in the universe and afterwards other books come into existence.
Somebody may say that human beings have knowledge by their nature to create anything like books etc., but we see that the newly born baby who is nursed in a jungle, in the absence of knowledge of a learned person, he becomes incapable to do anything. Thus, he can’t be M.A, M.Sc, doctor etc. So there are two types of the words and meanings. First, eternal which are from Almighty God and second, natural made by human beings. Eternal word meanings are always from Vedas i.e., from God. After listening/studying Vedas, human-beings become learned and then too based on their own natural knowledge, they make their own words and meanings, literature etc. But it is very much clear that in the absence of knowledge of Vedas, no one can become learned. Nowadays, also people live in dense jungle and do not lead a civilized life because they are not learned as cited above. Vedas are not sects because they emanate direct from God and God is one for all human beings. God creates sun, moon, air, water, food etc., which are meant for the best use of all human-beings for their long, happy life. So are the Vedas.
So all human beings must accept Vedas as an eternal knowledge from God, for the benefit of whole creation.
I would like top paste my article on creation etc., below-
The creation is eternal and automatic. There is no date of creation of the following:
(A) Almighty God who is alive, immortal, formless, creates, nurses and destroys the universe. He never indulges in any maya, mahamaya, illusion and deeds (good or bad. Yajurveda Mantra 40/8 and Yog shastra Sutra 1/26 also refer)
(B) Soul: Soul is alive, the purest, away from sins etc. but illusion covers the soul due to which soul forgets his original form and hence remains in sorrows, problems etc.
C) Prakriti: Non-alive and has three qualities. i.e., Raj, tam, Satva. At a proper time, the power of God acts in prakriti and the universe is created. So the creation is eternal and automatic.
Raj, Tam and Satva are the three qualities of prakriti. When the said gunnas remain idle dormant i.e., do not work, then combination of these three gunnas(qualities) in dormant stage is called prakriti and this time is called “final destruction” of the universe. When an appropriate time comes, the creation is to be started again. Then the power of God works in the above three gunnas i.e., in the prakriti and immediately the creation starts. Rajo gunn is a sign of sensuousness etc., Tamo gunn signifies laziness and sato gunn signifies ego, pride. Our human body is also made of the said three gunnas.
Vedas tell that there are three eternal/immortal matters- first: Almighty God, second: souls, third: prakriti. Almighty God creates, nurses and destroys the universe and again creates it. The said process of creation is eternal/immortal/everlasting. Almighty God creates the universe from prakriti. When the raj, tam and satva gunnas of prakriti remain idle (dormant condition/inactive) then creation does not take place. At an appropriate time, a power of Almighty God acts in prakriti (i.e., in Raj, tam and satva gunnas). Immediately the process of creation starts and the first matter of prakriti is made which is called –Mahat i.e., mind; from Mahat- ahankar is made, from ahankar panch (5) tan matrayein, from panch (5) tanmatrayein, panch (5) mahabhoot are created. From panch mahabhoot, the entire matter of universe i.e., Sun, Moon air, water , our bodies, bodies of other living beings etc., are created. The whole creation is thus created from prakriti and remains still (in active) like a statue. This creation is called non-sexual creation. In the said creation, the young human bodies are created which are neither old nor babies. Then by the power of God, in the said bodies, breathing system (prann vaayu) starts operating. At last, God enters into the universe and immediately all the humans and other living beings become alive and start functioning. Similarly, the non-alive matters like Sun, moon, earth, air, water etc., start their respective functions.
Creation, Science, worldly matters etc., is not possible until the same is created by someone. Secondly, knowledge is attained when knowledge is imparted by someone.
Rigveda mantra 10/129/ 1-6 throw light about creation that at that time, there was nothing and no living beings did exist. So there was no learned acharya who could give the knowledge to the newly created living beings like parents who educate the children to make them able to speak language and to know about the matters like crow, animals, chapati, ghee, sun, moon i.e., all matters of the world. See, if a newly born baby is managed to live in dense jungle and nursed well but he is not given education about the worldly matters etc. i.e., mathematics, science, animals, sun, moon etc., then even at the young age of 20-25, 30 years, he will not be able to speak any language and when he will be brought out of the cave of dense jungle and will be asked about the sun, moon, animals, birds before him, then he will not be able to reply because he was not given the said knowledge.
When we see towards sun, moon, air, space, human body etc. It is clearly understood that the said creation has not been made by any human being but Almighty God, from whom the knowledge of four Vedas emanates. In Vedas, the knowledge right from straw to Brahma has been mentioned. So in the beginning of non-sexual earth, the Vedas originated in the heart of four rishis: Agni, Vaayu, Aditya and Angira, and from the rishis the knowledge of science, deeds and worship along with every matter is being given to the public by which the public became educated scientist and wrote books, etc.
In Vedas as well as in fourth chapter of Yog Shastras of Rishi Patanjali, it is mentioned that those who do not believe in God are provided more and more facilities by nature and such people get spoiled etc.
On the contrary those who worship God, they naturally try to kill their desires and accordingly under the law, nature, help them to follow the true path to realize the God.
It is also pertinent to mention here that in Vedas, there is no mention of avtarwad or any proper noun, please. Vedas do not even contain any story or past, present or future life of anyone. Vedas contain knowledge i.e., entire science, form of deeds/duties and worship of God. Actually Vedas give knowledge right from straw to Brahma (God) of entire universe.
All four Vedas tell to worship a formless, Almighty, omnipresent, omniscient God who creates, nurses and destroys the universe. God was one, is one and shall ever remain one. He is unchangeable, unchallengeable and beyond description. He has unlimited qualities and thus unlimited names but is one. Because He is Almighty and needs no help of anyone to create, nurse and destroy the universe therefore no need to take avtar.
God is formless
Being formless there is no need of statue or temple of God according to Vedas. As a matter of fact, you, I or every human being, lives in a body. Body is separate, we are called souls. Vedas say soul has no form even. Then also we know each other. For example even if you have not seen the photograph of King Akbar then, you can know Akbar by means of the study of his qualities. So is the case with the God. If an aspirant really goes to his Guru and listens Vedas like Shri Ram, and ancient kings and their public then he will be able to know hundred percent about formless God. Then comes realization for which Vedas (especially Samveda) says that he who performs Yajyen, does jaap (according to Vedas) and practises Ashtang Yoga Philosophy while remaining in family like Shri Ram etc., he sure realizes ,being eternal law.
If we will meditate concentrating outside our body which is also against Vedas/Ashtang Yoga Philosophy, then our attention will always naturally remain outside i.e., attached with outer world i.e., decoration/music/dances etc. In that case subject matter of God will be over. It will be converted into spending fun, doing dances and singing attractive songs by ladies and gents, which is totally against Vedas. Thus the chapter of praising God, True Acharya, Rishi-Munis, performing Yajyen, practice of Ashtang Yoga, eternal knowledge of Vedas etc., will be over.
It is also baseless to say that study of Vedas and practice of yoga philosophy is difficult. It is self made story because Vedas are also called Shruti i.e., Vedas are to be listened first and not to be studied. So to listen to the Vedas, a learned Acharya is needed. The Acharya will explain the Ved mantras in the Yajyen in your own language i.e., in English or Urdu etc., and for an aspirant to do asan, pranayaam, meditation etc., is also not difficult. It is all difficult for those human beings, including present false prophets, (who are against the Vedas), who are lazy, can’t awake early in the morning to listen Vedas and fail to do practice of yoga philosophy. Those people are always after money, materialistic articles and pomp and show etc.
Vedas are not written or spoken by God. This knowledge is emanated from God and is originated in the heart of four Rishis as stated above. God is Almighty i.e., He has all powers. So He needs no assistance to do deeds of universe. In human body alive soul resides and soul is dependent, soul requires mouth to speak, eye to see, hand to write etc., etc. but not God. From His power God originates the knowledge of Vedas in the rishis without writing, or speaking etc. Vedas’ knowledge is divine. The fundamental of the Vedas is this that it was not written or spoken. The knowledge by the power of God was originated about one Arab 96 crore, 8 lakh and 53,111 years ago. Then first time the four rishis of nonsexual creation started pronunciation of the mantras by the power of God. God wanted them to know word meanings and sense of the mantras and therefore the rishis knew all. Then first time the four rishis started pronunciation of the mantras. They taught the mantras to other ignorant people. Then more rishis were produced who knew the Vedas by heart by listening only. There was no paper, ink or pen there. The Vedas were being learnt orally and traditionally this process is yet in force. But mostly not by heart but taking help of the printed book. So printed books are not called Vedas but these are called samhita.
Samhita means the collection of Ved mantras. Therefore Present printed books cannot be considered as Vedas and will never be in future, but samhita. Kapil Muni throws light on this point in his Sankhya Shastra sutra 5/48 that when a rishi does tapsya in the shape of Yajyen, study of Vedas, practice of Ashtang Yoga then the Ved mantras still (now also) originate in heart of the Rishi and the rishi pronounces the mantras. Those mantras are called Vedas, which emanate from God. So Vedas must first be listened (study) from alive Acharya (Guru who knows Vedas). Then only Samhita (books of Vedas) can help.
Names of God
In the Vedas there is only one God but has so many names according to His qualities. For example His name is OM which means the God is the saviour of all. His name is SURYA (sun) i.e., sun has light but sun takes light from God because God has the supreme and Divine light of His own. His name is Chandrma (moon). Moon gives peace, calm, cold and charming light so the name of God is also Chandrma (moon) because God gives peace, calm etc., to those who worship etc., etc. we all people do not worship thirty three Goddesses as briefed above. Shiva means Kalyan i.e., happiness, welfare, good fortune and benediction etc., i.e., He who does welfare to human beings, He is Shiva and He is only one Almighty God said above. Vishnu means He who is everywhere and He is only one Almighty God.
Rig-Veda mantra 1/164/46 says,” EKAM SADRUPA VIPRAH BAHUDHA VADANTI,” i.e., EKAM SATAM means truth is one i.e., God is one but VIPRAH = Rishis, Munis who were/are learned of Vedas, BAHUDHA VADANTI utter so many names of God mentioned in Vedas like AGNIM YAMAM MATRISHVANAM AAHUHU meaning-the names of God are Agni, Yam, Matrishva and AAHUHU means “says”. In Yajurveda mantra 32/1 the names of God stated are AGNI, ADITYA, VAAYU, CHANDRMA, SHUKRAM, BRAHM, AAPAH, and PRAJAPATIHI ETC, ETC, ETC. I would explain the meaning of above all the names of God in brief due to shortage of time and space.
AGNI= agrini i.e., at the top or who comes first or who was before the creation and according to the said qualities, here the meaning of Agni pertains to God i.e., God is eternal and therefore exists always before the creation etc. that is why Rigveda mantra 1/1/1 says AGNIM Eedey – in the said mantra the meaning of Agni is God according to the qualities and situation. Meaning of Eedey is desire. Therefore the meaning of Agnim Eedey is , “I am desirous of God. Similarly YAM means controller of universe, Matrishva means air i.e., like the air God gives life to human beings. Aditya means which can not be broken into pieces, Chandrma means like moon God gives calm/peace, Shukram means Almighty, Brahma means the superior/the biggest/the greatest etc., in the universe, Aapah means omnipresent, Prajapatihi means one who nurses the universe. So all the said meanings have the qualities of God and hence the name of God in the
Vedas, but these are always uttered by Rishis Munis, who are learned of Vedas, as mentioned in Rig-Veda mantra quoted above. Therefore only Rishis Munis who are learned of Vedas, utter or tell the holy name of God mentioned in Vedas and those who do not know Vedas can never utter the above holy names of God. But the said holy names, on the other hand, are even of surprising nature to them.
One thing more, the holy names of God in the Vedas are according to the nature, knowledge and deeds (God creates, nurses, destroys and controls the universe etc.) of Almighty God. Therefore those names are eternal and countless. So I am not able to mention here infinite names of Almighty God being beyond imagination, beyond calculation and beyond description etc., and we have to worship the said Almighty God whose description is in four Vedas, whose study has mostly been made to be stopped by the present saints who are against the Vedas and speak only charming stories etc., and never tell about Vedas. Whereas the description of Vedas is in Geeta, Ramayana,
six shastras, Upnishads and all ancient holy books. The reason why the present (most of them) saints do not quote Vedas is that they do not study the Vedas, do not do Yajyen and do not obey Ashtang Yoga Philosophy mentioned in Vedas which was also adopted by Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, Mata Sita, King Harishchandra, king Dashrath and their subjects/ public etc. Therefore we must be aware of false prophets.
Worship of one God only
God is one and no other God is even equivalent to the God who creates the universe as is also said in Yajurveda mantra 27/36. The mantra says that God is one and neither other God was born, nor will be born, equivalent to this God.
So God needs no assistant to spread His knowledge. Even God has no desire. Suppose God today desires to spread the knowledge of Vedas then it will be
originated in all human beings automatically. Why will he depute any assistant being Almighty?
Direct interaction with God is not possible in Vedas, God being above the senses, beyond calculation and beyond imagination. Interaction is only possible by mind and organs and in the realization of God the mind and body are no more functional. Death and birth etc., is also controlled by Almighty God wherein no unnatural occurring/ matters can be imposed. Nobody can change the fundamental law of nature. Vedas speak about only worshipping formless God.
God is always away from any illusion, buttering etc. That is why, we are always free to do good or bad deeds or to become atheists. He never forces us to become devotees etc. However, as is stated in Bhagwad Geeta shloka 2/47 that we are free to do deeds but result will be awarded by Almighty God (Yajurveda mantra 7/48 also refers).
I would advise you to read some of my books like Vedas- A divine light part-I (in English) worth Rs. 80/- and Bhagwad Geeta- Ek vedic Rehasya part-I (in Hindi) Worth Rs. 400/-, excluding postal charges on receipt of your postal address, if you desire