Ram Suri: We need to focus more on our topic. Please read my following answers, and email me. I once again say that I have no egoism or anger to express myviews.
Swami Ram Swarup: My dear I have felt your heart clearance and you must be rest assured that I always appreciate you on this pious discussion. So please do not repeat again and again. Because this is pious deed and not materialistic one.
Swamiji’s previous reply: I have quoted chapter 39th of Yajurveda and in its mantra 6 it is mentioned that the soul, after leaving the body wanders first day in Surya second in Agni third Vaayu fourth Aditya, fifth chandrma, 6 Ritu etc., etc. But these are called padarth (matter and non -alive), please. And not alive deity.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Here we are talking about salvation. Right? After Ritu, where does the soul go? Can you please let me know the names of non-alive deity after Ritu till the end of this path? So that, we can take our discussion further.
Swami Ram Swarup: I usually try to give answer in short with an intention that remaining answer you will choose from Vedas which will increase a lot of knowledge at all level. Now please complete the answer, after Ritu Marutah, then Brihaspatihi, then Mitrah, then Varunah, then Indrah, then at last Vishvedevaha. Then after wandering sometime the soul who got no salvation takes rebirth (bodies) according to karmas.
Swamiji’s previous reply: In Vedas Devayan marg means the soul has got salvation and pitriyann marg means the soul who has not got salvation and requiresrebirth. And salvation is always while living in body. This is also quoted in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! With due respect I would like to say that I have very clear concepts about Devyan and Pitriyan margs. Your understanding that salvation is always living in body is not completely accurate. This is only applicable to those persons who experienced the divine while living. These persons are called jeevan muktas. It is very pity that you are thinking that these jeevan muktas also follow archiradhi marg (which is also called devyan path) to achieve salvation. It is very, very wrong. If you donot believe me, please, please ask some enlightened person to find out the truth. The type of salvation that Jeevan muktas gets is called sadhyo mukti, which is entirely different from krama mukti, which is resulted due to following of soul by archiradhi marg. Sir! I am sorry to say that since you are lack of thorough Upanishad knowledge, you are gettingconfusion again and again. I do not have any anger against you, but I feel pity very sincerely for you sir. I am very much astonished to see that you do not even know that there are two types of salvations, as per Upanishads. Now, please let us see what thereference Chhandogya Upanishad 5/10/7, as quoted by you, is concerned about. This reference is concerned about Pitriyani marg. In fact, the description of Pitriyani marg started from Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/ 3 to 7. Honestly, the reference you quoted (Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7) does not say that salvation is always while living in body, and in your above answer, you have even claimed that this is also quoted in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7. Sir! This is not good. Please show my answer and your answer to anenlightened person, and ask who is right. He will tell the correct answer.
Swami Ram Swarup: The oldest books of the earth are lying in the world’s library called four Vedas. To realise the truth the proof of Vedas are required please. I had already told this fact and Rishi patanjali in his sutra 1/7 has told about proof of Vedas as Swatah Pramaan. And proof of shastras/upnishads are Partah Pramaan. When the proof of Vedas has been given then no other proof is essential please. But if yet shastras/upnishads proof is mentioned which are even true but our Rishis still requires the proof of Vedas being Swatah Pramaan. I mentioned Rigveda mantra about Devyan (salvation)marg and Pitriyan about rebirth, so no other proof is essential. Upnishads/shastras/Mahabharta(Geeta) contains the knowledge of Vedas because their writer were the philosopher of Vedas called Rishis and Munis. Rigvedas 10/53/6 says Manuhu Bhav i.e., have the deepest study and discussion on Ved mantras. In the past three yugas the said study/discussion up to Vyas Muni was traditional and the public was happy. The shastras etc., are written by Rishis/Munis but Vedas have not been written by anybody else. This knowledge is direct from God as mentioned in every Vedas, Manu smriti and every shastras/Geeta/Upnishad/Valmiki Ramayan/Mahabharta/Shatpath Brahmin granth etc. I quote here an example please. In Yajurveda mantra 4/11 the meaning of TIRTH is the place where philosopher of Vedas (Rishis-Munis) resides, performs Yajna from Veda mantras and do ashtang yoga, where the aspirant must go to learn the same. But now this meaning has totally been changed. So now the Manan- Chintan (study etc.,) is being carried out on the present meaning and not on the eternal word Tirth. So if we go in the deep and still study the upnishad which have been commented by those who are philosopher of Vedas then only we can understand the real meaning of all culture of above said shastras/Geeta/Upnishads etc., then we find reality. As said above Manuhu Bhav means study of Vedas and not others, because said by God Himself in above Rigveda mantra. After studying Vedas we must study upnishads/shastras/geeta etc/., which are Rishi made holy books and true, but we have left the Vedas totally and are studying and discussing on the meanings of the words like Tirth. Heartily I request not to mind please but continue to send your views whether you accept my views or not. I always love and appreciate you. Everybody is free to adopt any path but when discussion is there then too we must be free but our love must be constant and permanent. So God has told Manuhu Bhav and not has told to study others leaving Vedas, the eternal knowledge. Why we should be suppressed to study and discuss the views of man made whereas the knowledge /views of God are there in Vedas.
Swamiji’s previous reply: The sun, for six months remain in Uttrayann and for six months in Dakishnnayan, so it does not mean that the people who have done thousands of sins and are dead in Uttrayann will get salvation, and the Yogi leaves body in Dakishnnayan will get rebirth. The God is Almighty and the result of karmas is always in His power only. So while living a Yogi can teach the path of salvation to others as mentioned also in Samkhya sutra 3/78,” JEEVANMUKTASCH ” i.e., the Yogi who is alive because of living in the body is called alive and because he has got salvation so is called “Mukta”. In the next sutra 3/79 Kapil Muni says that because the Yogi is alive and has experienced the realization of God that is why he only delivers the authentic preach and no others can do like this. So the Amanav if gets salvation after death then who will teach the real salvation path to the aspirants.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I will be grateful to you if you could tell me who this amanava purusha in your above answer, and if possible, please quote Upanishad reference. Also please tell me what is the definition of uttarayan and dakshinayan in relation to salvation, and why these terms are used at all?
Swami Ram Swarup: I already briefed the matter and it will take some time to rewrite. These are the days when we start four Vedas Anushthan and yoga camp from this month till second week of June. The public from all states attends. I have to devote about fourteen hours daily to preach every mantra in Hindi and to teach ashtang yoga. So please put this question after 13th June, 04. I think you will not mind please. So our next discussion will commence from 14th June please. I send my namaste to you with whole heart.
Swamiji’s previous reply: Devyan is only salvation path and not dakishnayann, please.
Ram Suri present reply: But who said that dakshinayana path is a salvation path? I never said that. Then, what is your above answer pointing at sir?
Swamiji’s previous reply: Association with light means salvation and with dark means rebirth because of NISHKAAM AMD SAKAAM KARMAS etc. You can say gyan marg and karam marg.
Ram Suri present reply: Please, you are using the gyan marg and karma marg in very loose sense. I will say here again that I have clear concepts about what is gyan and karma, and how they both would become synonymous to each other at the highest level. But I am not interested to debate on this issue with you after seeing how loosely these terms are used in your above answer.
Swami Ram Swarup: If you have clear concept then I would request you to please quote Ved mantra as a proof.
Swamiji’s previous reply: The souls, which follow Devyan marg get salvation
Ram Suri present reply: Gita also says the same thing. I agree to it. And I also know and agree that pitriyani marg makes the soul to take birth in samsar.
Swamiji’s previous reply: and as regards rebirth, I have quoted already the Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2. Shri Krishna Maharaj is giving knowledge in 8/23,24 &25 about Uttrayann and Dakishnayann and concludes in shlok 8/26 saying JAGATAH SHUKLA– KRISHNE i.e., the shukla and Krishnn paksh are the saying of Jagat. That it is being said in the jagat– world— public i.e., not in Vedas or by Rishis Munis.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Your interpretation of Gita 8/26 sloka is not correct. In this sloka, Lord Krishna says that both shukla and Krishna paths are eternal in this jagat (material world). But you are saying that these two paths are the sayings of jagat.Sir! Where did you read this type of interpretation for this sloka? I am astonished to see your understanding of scriptures do not tally with sri Vyas, sri Shankara or sri Ramanuja explanations. Sri Ramanuja did not give interpretation like the way you had given for this sloka. Please read at least sri Ramanuja’s bhasyam on Gita. In spiritualism, public sayings have no meaning. Also please remember, Lord Krishna’s sayings in Gita are not public sayings.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote any Ved mantra in your support. Because the decision from Vedas is only final and the decision of Geeta/upnishad is also final if thecomments thereon are from philosopher of Vedas otherwise comments like Tirth, Yajga, Dev, etc., given by those who have not studied Vedas are not final. Because the said pious holy books have been written by ancient mantradrishta Rishis, the philosopher of Vedas and yoga and must now also needs comments like those dignities.
Swamiji’s previous reply: So in next shlok 8/27 Yogeshwar Shri Krishna Maharaj says ETE SRITI JANAN i.e., the Yogi who knows about these two paths andit’s truth that these paths makes no difference in the matter of salvation KAH CHANA YOGI NA MUHYATI i.e., no any Yogi has any attachment or any doubt about thesaid two paths and salvation. So O Arjuna! SARVESHU KALESHU i.e., in all times (whether uttaryann or Dakishnayann or Devyan or Pitriyan) you YOG YUKTAHBHAVA i.e., always remain yourself a Yogi. I.e., if one has attained the salvation and has become Yogi so his salvation is meant for all the time without effecting Uttrayann or Dakshinayann. So from using the word Jagat Shri Krishna has himself said imaginationthat it is a world’s saying only and a Yogi is not attached with the world’s saying. Now you kindly send your views. Because I can’t deny Bhagwat Geeta at any moment.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Neither sri Shankara nor Sri Ramanuja said the meaning for this sloka in this way. So, on one hand I would say that I respect yourviews, and on the other hand, I would say that your understanding of this sloka is not correct 100%.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here the differences arise because four Vedas says the salvation through gyan, karam, and Upasana whereas anyone can say and he is free to say that salvation is meant only on gyan and not karam and upasana and other can say that salvation is based on bhakti and nothing else like karma etc. So please clear this point whether you accept Vedas knowledge i.e., gyan ,karam and upasana or not.
Swamiji’s previous reply: My dear, now you have created a loving atmosphere so you must be assured that there is nothing that in our heart and you must discuss and continue this pious matter freely. As I have told above with the references that I neverdenied Devyan and Dakishnayann marg but meaning thereof is salvation and non-salvation respectively. But as you previously told about subtule body, so based on that there are no two types of salvation please.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! The issue of presence of subtle body in absolute sense for soul is a different topic. We will come to that point also slowly. I know very well that davyan marg is for salvation, and pitriyan marg is to return to samsar. But what I am saying is that salvation is of two types. One is achieved slowly by following davyan marg (also called krama mukti path) and the other type of salvation is called sadhyo mukti, meant for people like jeevan muktas. This type of classification for salvation isfound in Upanishads. I have already quoted an Upanishad reference in my previous posting. I request you to read it for clear understanding please.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please quote any Veda mantra about two types of salvation quoted by you. In discussion proof is essential so please do not mind and I hope you will maintain love forever.
Ram Suri previous request: Can you please reply whether you agree that the soul is guided to a god by a amanava purush as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference? If you agree up to point, then we can proceed further slowly.
Swamiji’s previous reply: God is Almighty, please. Therefore He needs no any assistant that after leaving the body anybody will teach the aspirants. In Shevtashwaropnishad 6/8 it is said — SWABHAVIKI GYANAM BALAM KRIYA CH i.e., gyan, bal, and karam of Almighty God are swabhavik (naturally) i.e., needs no assistance.
Ram Suri present reply: Here, you are talking totally out of context. In my above request, I said that as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference whether you agree to the point that the soul is guided to a god by amanava purusha. This question is still valid and still unanswered. I request you to read this reference first and then let me know its meaning, so that, we will move forward from that point onwards.
Swami Ram Swarup: Answer has been already given above and in previous discussion also that God is Almighty and needs no assistant that after leaving the body any amanav soul would teach the other soul to go to God. Salvation always is in living body and not after death. Now as I have requested above please open the whole issue after 13th June, 04.