Swamiji’s previous reply: The conclusion of Braham sutra 4/3/1 is that he who worships Brahma goes to brahamlok through archi. Archi means Rashmi- kiran.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! There is no clash in these references, and I agree what ever the sruti says in this regard.
Swamiji’s previous reply: In Chandogya Upnishad 5/10/1,2, there has been mentioned other paths also from archi to Agni, day, jyoti etc.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! The names you have mentioned as archi, agni, day, jyoti etc do not represent different paths. Instead they are various places on the path of archiradhi marg (also called devyan marg).
Swami Ram Swarup: Rigveda mantra 10/88/15 throw light on this matter that (MARTYANAM PITRINNAM) i.e., in the matter of souls, who leaves body at the time of death i.e., martyanam, those who nurses them i.e., their parents— pitrinnam, (UT) and DEVANAM i.e., those who have got salvation. For these two DWEY SRUTI — two paths are there:
One Pitiryann and second Devyan. (Tabhyam) from those (EJAT VISHWAH SMITI) i.e., got salvation and the second (PITRAM MATRAM ANTRA CHAYAT) i.e., who does not get salvation that soul takes rebirth. So these Pitriyann and Devyan two paths have been stated in Vedas.
Braham Sutra [4/2/21(517)] is regarding death. It is clear by Vedas that soul leave the body one day and gets next body according to his good or bad deeds. The soul of a Yogi comes out through Sushamna Naadi and makes contact with rays of sun. See if a Yogi leaves the body in night it does not mean that there are no sun’s ray. The rays of moon are the rays of sun at the night and until we are alive, the contact with the sun’s ray can’t be broken. Therefore there is no any question or doubt to leave the body in Uttrayan Shukla paksh to get salvation etc. The salvation or the next pious birth is always based on pious deeds according to Vedas. This is the fundamental law of God and can’t be changed. So no question of Uttrayan or Dakshinayan. The contact of the soul at the time of death with sun’s ray is to be in space and soul has to go to sun, moon, air, etc., etc., vide 39th chapterof Yajurveda. The Braham sutra quoted above clarifies that the said fundamental law is applicable also for a Yogi. Yogeshwar Krishna clarifies this fact in Geeta shlok 8/23,24, 25 that the people says the importance of Uttrayan and Dakishnnayan but in shlok 8/27 Shri Krishna clarifies that it is based only on self imagination but the Yogi who knows the fundamental of karmas he does not worry about Uttrayan and Dakishnnayan.
Ram Suri: The soul passes through these places. It is like this sir. If I go to Agra from Delhi, the route from Delhi to Agra is called the path. Various stations that come in between the journey are various places only, but not called paths of the journey. Since you have quoted sri Ramanuja’s reference previously, let me say what sri Ramanuja had said about these names of the path. He said that the names, like agni, day, etc represent the names of various deities on this path. You said previously that do not believe in the existence of any gods or deities. But sri Ramanuja believed in the existence of gods or deities. I also remember you saying that sri Ramanuja had done a lot of work, which tally with Vedas. When sri Ramanuja believed the existence of various gods or deities based on his understanding of Vedas, then why you do not believe in the existence of various gods or deities as per Veda teachings. On the other hand, both sri Vyas and sri Shankara also said that the names represent various deities on this path.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have quoted chapter 39th of Yajurveda and in its mantra 6 it is mentioned that the soul, after leaving the body wanders first day in Surya ,second in Agni, third Vaayu, fourth Aditya, fifth chandrma, 6 Ritu etc., etc. But these are called padarth (matter and non -alive) please. And not alive deity. In Vedas Devayan marg means the soul has got salvation and pitriyann marg means the soul who has not got salvation and requires rebirth. And salvation is always while living in body. This is also quoted in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7.
Swamiji’s reply: And as regards Manav and amanav, the sadhak (manav) himself becomes a manav and teaches the aspirants and this philosophy is said ” Devyanmarg”
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! The term ‘amanav’ is found in Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 (please see the term ‘tat purusho amanava’). You have used two termsin your answer, namely, ‘manav and amanav’. The usage of both these terms should be done differently. Here both cannot be used to denote one. The reason is that amanav (a non-human person) comes into our discussion for the sake of leading the soul that has followed the path of devayani or archiradhi marg (Both these names indicate the same path, please. I believe that you know it). This amanav purush leads the soul to aparticular god (who is not supreme, and going of this soul to this god itself is not equal to getting salvation. Salvation for this soul comes in much later stages). It means that the question of amanav purush leading the soul of the sadhaka will only come after the death of physical body. Right? Then, where is the question of living of this sadhaka? He is already dead, and his soul has followed devayani path, and after passing different places, amanav purush comes to the soul and leads this soul to a particular god. Right? This soul cannot take any more births to become a manav and to teach the aspirants about philosophy. Why this soul cannot take any more births in future? Because, the sadhaka when living on earth had done good spiritual sadhana and longed or aimed for salvation. When the soul of this sadhaka follows devayani path, it means that the soul is qualified(due to lot of sadhana) to get salvation. If this is the case, how can this soul take birth and teaches to the aspirants about philosophy? This is not possible. And you have said that this philosophy to be devyanmarg. Devyan marg is a path, where a qualified soul passes through different places for the sake of salvation, as described in sruti, which I had already quoted couple of references previously (Chandogya, Bri. Uapnishads etc.), and reaches to a god by the help of a amanav purush. Therefore, your above explanation does not tally with Upanishads, and I do not believe that Vedas would contradict the Upanishad teachings.
Swami Ram Swarup: The sun, for six months remain in Uttrayann and for six months in Dakishnnayan, so it does not mean that the people who have done thousands of sins and are dead in Uttrayann will get salvation, and the Yogi leaves body in Dakishnnayan will get rebirth. The God is Almighty and the result of karmas is always in His power only. So while living a Yogi can teach the path of salvation to others as mentioned also in Samkhya sutra 3/78,” JEEVANMUKTASCH ” i.e., the Yogi who isalive because of living in the body is called alive and because he has got salvation so is called “Mukta”. In the next sutra 3/79 Kapil Muni says that because the Yogi is alive and has experienced the realization of God that is why he only delivers the authenticpreach and no others can do like this. So the Amanav if gets salvation after death then who will teach the real salvation path to the aspirants.
Swamiji’s reply: Archi means a stage of the soul like a pure ray.” Aha” (day) means the stage like a pure, bright day and so on. So these are the stages of souls and death on a proper day etc.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Various names like aha, jyoti, brightness etc etc., are the names of various deities associated with archiradhi marg. Please also vide my above answer where sri Shankara, sri Vyas and sri Ramanuja had expressed this opinion. Therefore, they do not represent the death of a person on a proper day etc. Perhaps you may also be thinking about uttarayan and dakshinayana margs.
Swamiji’s reply: Geeta shlok 8/27 is based on imagination only,
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Your opinion is not correct please. In this sloka, Lord Krishna says that knowing these two paths, a devotee is never bewildered (not trapped in to moha). These two paths, described in sloka 8/26 of Gita, are not two types of salvation paths. I hope you know this. Ans. Devyan is only salvation path and not dakishnayann, please. In 8/26, Lord Krishna says that there are two types of departing from this world. These two types of departing of souls after death is not equal to two types of path of salvation. One path of departure is associated with light and the other path of departure is associated with dark.
Swami Ram Swarup: Association with light means salvation and with dark means rebirth because of NISHKAAM AMD SAKAAM KARMAS etc. You can say gyan marg and karam marg.
Ram Suri: What is light path departure? Please read 8/24 sloka of Gita This is called archiradhi marg or devay marg (also called krama mukti marg).
Swami Ram Swarup: As I have already explained above this is salvation and a Yogi then need not to repeat jap, tap, karma etc.
Ram Suri: Souls, which follow this path, will never take birth. Then what is dark path departure? Please read 8/25 sloka of Gita. Souls, which follow this path, will eventually take birth in this samsar. Sir! How can you say so simply that Gita 8/27 is based on imagination? Please contemplate over it.
Swami Ram Swarup: The souls which follow Devyan marg get salvation and as regards rebirth, I have quoted already the Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2. Shri Krishna Maharaj is giving knowledge in 8/23,24 &25 about Uttrayann and Dakishnayann and concludes in shlok 8/26 saying JAGATAH SHUKLA– KRISHNE i.e., the shukla and Krishnn paksh are the saying of Jagat. That it is being said in the jagat– world— public i.e., not in Vedas or by Rishis Munis. So in next shlok 8/27 Yogeshwar Shri Krishna Maharaj says ETE SRITI JANAN i.e., the Yogi who knows about these two paths and it’s truth that these paths makes no difference in the matter of salvation KAH CHANA YOGI NA MUHYATI i.e., no any Yogi has any attachment or any doubt about the said two paths and salvation. So O Arjuna! SARVESHU KALESHU i.e., in all times (whether uttaryann or Dakishnayann or Devyan or Pitriyan) you YOG YUKTAH BHAVA i.e., always remain yourself a Yogi. I.e., if one has attained the salvation and has become Yogi so hissalvation is meant for all the time without effecting Uttrayann or Dakshinayann. So from using the word Jagat Shri Krishna has himself said imagination that it is a world’s saying only and a Yogi is not attached with the world’s saying. Now you kindly send your views. Because I can’t deny Bhagwat Geeta at any moment.
Swamiji’s reply: otherwise the salvation is attained while alive.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Let us be serious about our spiritual discussion. Salvation is meant for soul, not to a physical body. A sadhaka utilizes the physical body etc to perform intense sadhana. When this sadhaka experiences the divine, then he is called a jeevan mukta technically. This term is only used figuratively to show the difference of this jeevan mukta with rest of the humans, who are bonded in samsar. Jeevan mukti is not an absolute state of salvation. Absolute salvation is only meant for soul. It means that after the death of this jeevan mukta, his soul will get the salvation in absolute sense.
Swami Ram Swarup: Whatever you are saying, this I have said before that in salvation the physical body is not required but a jeevan mukta needs this body till such time he leaves it and remains alive. This fact is also said by Kapil Muni in Samkhya shastra sutra 3/82— CHAKRBHRAMANNVAD DHRITSHARIRAH i.e, as a potter uses his power on the stick to rotate potter’s wheel and thus the wheel itself rotates till the time the strength used by the potter comes to an end. Similarly after getting salvation the Yogi remains alive in the body till such time his breathing time given by the God is finished.
Swamiji’s reply: Secondly, there are no two types of salvation because salvation (moksh) means lack of body and sorrows etc.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Your opinion is not correct again. Please understand that I am not saying it due to anger or hatred for you or anyone. But a truth is a truth, and it is always bitter to hear it initially. In 8/26, Lord Krishna describes two types of departures from this world. In simple language it is like this. One is going and never comes back, and the other one is going and coming back. Going and never comes back is called salvation. This is of two types, as per sruti please. Sir! Whether you believein these two types of salvation paths or not is not important for me. My only intension is to tell what ever is mentioned in Upanishad. Please see Varaho Upanishad, 4.5 about two types of salvations. Lord Ram also expressed similar views in Muktiko Upanishad. Onetype of salvation is called sadhyo mukti (simply called Immediate salvation). This type of salvation is meant for jeevan muktas, who experience divine while living. The second type of salvation is called krama mukti path (also called archiradhi marg or devayan marg or light marg or solar path or gradual salvation path). Sir! How can you say that no two paths of salvation exist when sruti says? Please contemplate over it.
Swami Ram Swarup: My dear, now you have created a loving atmosphere so you must be assured that there is nothing that in our heart and you must discuss and continue this pious matter freely. As I have told above with the references that I never denied Devyan and Dakishnayann marg but meaning thereof is salvation and non-salvation respectively. But as you previously told about subtle body, so based on that there are no two types of salvation please.
Swamiji’s reply: Yogeshwar while in body (alive) is also in salvation but will feel heat, cold etc., through body but soul has got Samadhi,
Ram Suri present reply: What ever you have said above is applicable to a jeevan mukta. I agree to it. But this state of salvation is not correct in absolute sense. See, even a jeevan mukta has karma to face it. In that situation, how can anyone could say the stateof salvation of a jeevan mukta be in absolute sense. It does not mean that salvation is given in bits and pieces. Please understand that absolute salvation is applicable to soul only. If you do not believe in these words, it does not matter to me. Because theseare not my self-made words, but sruti says it. I will wait for your reply on this.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have clarified above this point saying Samkhya sutras 3/78to 82 , please. Now please send your comments.
Swamiji’s reply: but after death he will not feel anything else due to lack of body because from body, the sorrows, seasons, happiness, sadness etc., are felt. If it is not then, half salvation with subtle body etc., is not mentioned in Shatpath Brahmin kand 14, already stated or in any Ved mantra.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! There is no mention of half salvation in scriptures. I have never said that. What I am saying is that absolute salvation is only meant for soul. A jeevan mukta state is not an absolute state of salvation. A jeevan mukta also faces the karma. Once this concept becomes clear, then there won’t be any confusion about absolute salvation, which is only meant for soul.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please see above samkhya sutra and send your comments now.
Ram Suri: Can you please reply whether you agree that the soul is guided to a god by a amanava purush as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference? If you agree up to point, then we can proceed further slowly.
Swami Ram Swarup: God is Almighty, please. Therefore He needs no any assistant that after leaving the body anybody will teach the aspirants. In Shevtashwaropnishad 6/8 it is said — SWABHAVIKI GYANAM BALAM KRIYA CH i.e., gyan, bal, and karam of Almighty God are swabhavik (naturally) i.e., needs no assistance.