Vedic inspiration for Business

Vedas are the store house of entire knowledge. God also gives knowledge regarding economy in four Vedas because the hard-earned money leads to attainment of eternal happiness in life.

How to do Havan - In Spanish

TODOS DEBEMOS HACER aachman con los siguientes tres Mantras;---------
1. Om Amritopastarn Masih Swaha
2. Om Amritapidhan Masih Swaha
3. Om Satyam yshaha shree mareyee shree shreyatam Swaha

Significado: Om Amritopastarn Masih Swaha;-

OM = Nombre Divino de Dios que nos protege; AMRIT = A + MRIT = AMRIT = Mrit significa muerte y “A” significa no, por lo que Amrit es sobre quien la muerte no llega. Dios es inmortal., UPASTARNNAM = fundación/base/cama, ASI = eres tú, SWAHA = acción eterna/ verdad.

Vedic Mantras - translated in Spanish

Rigveda 10/95/15: PURURAVO MA MRITHA MA PRA PAPTO MA TVA VRIKASO ASHIVAS U KSHAN, NA VAI STRAINNANI SAKHYANI SANTI SALAVRIKANNAM HRIDYANYETA

(PURURAVAHA) Oh! La persona que tanto habla (MA) no (MRITHAHA) muere. Esto significa: La persona que no conoce el amor eterno hacia su mujer y siempre habla sin pensar, esa persona no irá a su hogar celestial. Esto es porque su falso amor con una dependencia sin sentido y palabras sin sentido reducirán su edad y le llevarán a una muerte temprana.

Vedic Time Management

Yajurveda mantra 3/6 states that the earth resolves around the Sun, with the result time calculation is made. Atharvaveda mantra 9/9/11, 12, 13 and 14 state about the kaalchakra (cycle of time). Atharvaveda kand 19, sukta 53 and sukta 54 tell about cycle of time (kaal chakra). So the study of said mantras will give the knowledge of time management. In Yajurveda the life has been divided into four parts i.e., Brahamcharya, Grahasth, Vanprastha and Sanyas. Every ashram requires the knowledge of time management for which the said Ved mantras are required to be studied deeply.

Many Saints claim them as God. Are they?

Rashmi: Swamiji, please comment on the saints who proclaim themselves to be God.

What is the form of eternal worship according to Vedas?

All Vedas, like Yajurveda mantra 4/1 and 7/1 state, "PRITHIVIYA IDAM DEV YAJNAM", "BHAGAH ASI _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _". Meaning of which is that we have taken
the birth on this earth in human body to do services of God and learned Acharya to become pure and to realize God which is the main motto of human life. So in all Vedas, worship of God is defined that when we obey the teach of God in Vedas, then it is the real worship i.e., services of God.

Annual Yajyen Update: Swami Ramswarupji's daily preach

AN EXTRACT OF PREACH ON ATHARVAVEDA MANTRA DELIEVERED BY HIS HOLINESS SWAMI RAM SWARUP JI MAHARAJ ON 8th JUNE 2007, FRIDAY.

ATHARVAVEDA KAND 19, SUKTA 60, MANTRA 1, 2-

The idea of these mantras is as follows:-

The aspirant pray to God that may his speech always be sweet and humble, may his power of hearing remain impaired even in old age, may his eye-sight remain-correct, may his hair remain naturally colored, may his teeth remain strong and fit, may his arms, thighs carry strength, may his body acquire physical

Saamveda mantra 1 & 2

Saamveda Mantra 1


"AGNA AA YAHI VEETAYE GRINNANO HAVYADAATYE.
NI HOTA SATSI BARHISHI"


(Agna = Agni) O God!(Veetaye) to give us wisdom (Havyadaatye) to give the best pious matters, mind etc., (Barhishi) in Yajyen/in heart (Aa Yahi) come i.e., appear. (Hota) O! donor of all matters (Grinnanaha) preaching duties. (Ni Satsi) sit i.e., appear in heart.

After Death

Yajurveda mantra 3/55, says, "DEVAIYAH JANAH NAH PUNAH MANAH DADATU" i.e., by blessings (preach and true education of Vedas) may learned Acharya give us next birth of human being so that we may again be able to learn the truth of Vedas and to get salvation.

Modern Youth & Vedas

The word 'modern' itself has a secret to forgo the eternal knowledge of Vedas. When eternal is oversighted then only 'Modern' comes into existence. Vedas state that eternal knowledge is evergreen being self existent (existence at its own). In this connection Vedas have produced a pious word "Swayambhu" meaning that which has not been made by anybody, without beginning, uncreated, it was in the
past, will ever remain in future and exists in present as well. As per Vedas, four matters come in this category, i.e. Almighty God, souls, Prakriti and Four Vedas. Now what has happened, most of the people have oversighted the eternal path and naturally, the self-created path/culture is in vogue. But be alert. Eternal is everlasting and finishes sorrows to give long, happy life whereas modern which is self-created gives time being enjoyment and the result thereof is always to ruin the human-being. Because there is a law, eternal is that which is everlasting being uncreated modern is destructible being created. Creation is always destroyed and uncreated matter is everlasting. It has been an experience of learned that modern/created fashion pertaining to clothes, face cream, tooth-paste, medicines, science etc., changes frequently but the qualities of the above four matters i.e., God etc., are always unchangeable. Even no change occurs in the creation from Prakriti in the shape of all materialistic articles of the universe like Sun, Moon, air etc. though the said articles are destroyed one day being a creation. So who are modern in this connection, I think a shloka of Manusmriti will better throw a light. Shloka is 2/153 = "Aghobhavati Va Balaha Pita Bhavati Mantra Daha


Meaning:- Ag = ignorant, indulged in illusion being unaware of eternal knowledge like science, education, deeds etc. Bhavati = is, Balaha = child whether having age of 100 years, indulged in illusion being unaware of eternal knowledge like science, education etc.
A newly born baby is always considered ignorant. Mantra daha = He who gives knowledge about science, deeds, creation, God, duties etc., to be happy. Pita = learned, old person whether he is a child of the age of 5 years , 10 years or 20 years. Therefore Vedas consider that he who has the elemental as well as spiritual knowledge, is learned and old. On the contrary and ignorant is considered as a child.


Idea is that the person who has not studied Vedas, shastras and is ignorant about elemental science and spiritual knowledge is like a child. And a learned, as stated above , who has got the wisdom of elemental as well as spiritual knowledge by hard study there of is learned, old person. In the Manusmriti, the word used as "Balaha" = child and "Pita"= learned may not be considered otherwise because the same have been throwing light towards illusion and knowledge.


Modern youth mostly takes interest in physical charms, science, materialistic articles, movies, sports, fashion etc. It is also seen that some boys and girls are entangled in addiction as well. Question arises why? Answer is very simple that due to such society, they have made up their mind that the deeds, which they are doing, gives them enjoyment, time pass, happiness etc. But the youth, have not been provided with real spiritual atmosphere. For example- Vedas are eternal knowledge direct from God. Vedas tell that
everybody wants pleasure, happiness which are of two kinds-
(1) Physical charm etc., as mentioned above. This gives temporary, perishable pleasure. The result of such pleasure involves in sins too if the youth is not learned of spiritualism.


(2) Second pleasure is spiritualism which is everlasting and result of which is pious one. So the difference between the modern culture and the eternal culture of Vedas is to be taught to the youth which is not an easy task nowadays because the nature of the youth will have to be converted from sinful to virtuous one.

It concludes that we may be modern in those materialistic articles which are only useful for routine life like dress code, food, present science etc., but not in the case of eternal knowledge of God, souls, Prakriti and Vedas as stated above. Secondly, a child does not know about the fire, that
it is harmful to touch but learned knows. So is the case with the above four eternal matters.


The modern education mostly teaches us to study to live upon. Therefore if our ministers or intellectuals can consider the eternal and modern matters seriously then they can enforce the eternal Vedic education in the schools, colleges, universities as a compulsory subject like math, science, english etc. Then our modern boys/girls will sure know the value about the four eternal matters which are only capable to kill our sorrows, diseases, problems etc., and to give us long, happy life. Then only the modern youth will be able to know that mere study will do nothing but progress in both sides i.e. materialism as well as spiritualism will serve the purpose to attain salvation. So mere listening of katha , kirtan or the stories of our Purannas etc., have not become capable to turn the youth from atheism youth requires scientific proof which exists in Vedas.

Adwaitvad continued

As replied to Ram Suri's question dated: March 24, 2004
Ram Suri: Namaskar. I have written the answers for you questions or objections with references from scriptures. Some of the subjects are give a topic, and both your' s and my views are shown, along with my present answers. You can verify your statements quoted by me from your previous emails.

Swami Ramswarup: Namaskar. I am happy to receive your reply. Please continue till its finalization.

* Topic: Does soul have a subtle body after absolute salvation?

Swami Ramswarup: Shatpath Brahmin Granth 3/7/6 clarifies that he who has studied four Vedas and has practiced Ashtang Yoga as per Yajurveda mantra 7/4, he is only a perfect Acharya/Rishi/Guru and similarly Kapil Muni in his Samkhya Shastra sutra 1/66 ," AAPTOPDESHAH SHABDAH" says that such Acharya and his words are considered as a proof of four Vedas. Because they have attained the eighth fold path of Ashtang Yoga i.e., Samadhi. Yog Shastra sutra 1/7 also says the similar truth about an Acharya with regard to a proof and also includes that the eternal knowledge of God in the shape of four Vedas, are self proof. So in short, we will have to consider the above said proof to come to a truth.There must not be our own made views or views of these books not written by authentic Rishis. So based on the Rishis' Granths there are eight types of Darshan (proof) ---- PRATAKSHA, ANUMAAN, UPAMAAN, SHABDA, ATIHYA, ARTHAPATTI, SAMBHAV AND ABHAAV. So will have to consider the above proof to come to the truth. Upnishad , shastra and Bhagwat geeta etc., have been written by Rishis based on knowledge of four Vedas only. Generally what happens we study the comments written by those either who are against the Vedas or try to escape from the Vedas saying that the Vedas are difficult which is incorrect. Present explanation must therefore be by an authentic dignity having knowledge of four Vedas. This is basic fundamental and can't be changed. Now we come to the point. Please also study Yog shastra sutra 2/3 --- AVIDYASMITA RAAGDWESHABHNIVESHAPANCHKALESAHA which clarifies that Avidya produces untruth, blind faith etc., in absence of the knowledge of Vedas.

Topic: Does soul have a subtle body after absolute salvation?

Swami Ramswarup: I have mentioned below the proof of being suksham sharir (swa sankalp power) of soul in salvation (moksh). In moksh soul has no sthool sharir but with own desire the soul gets ear, nose, mind etc., to enjoy the moksh merriment, which is called suksham sharir. That is why suksham sharir is unseen. Vedas are only self-proof being the knowledge direct from God. If Rishis and Munis had not studied Vedas, how they could write Upanishads, Valmiki Ramayan, six shastras etc. the Rishis have first praised Vedas in their shastras etc., and not their own written culture. It is a wonder that people for their own suitability escapes themselves not to study Vedas and are only after upnishads etc., whereas the base of upnishads, shastras etc., are four Vedas. The upnishads, shastras yet have no full fledged knowledge as is available in Vedas. So first we must respect our parents then we must love our children please. In Vedas souls, Prakriti and God are the topic alongwith other matters, knowledge and deeds. As I have previously briefed vide Rigveda mandal 10 wherein traitwad is mentioned. Moksh (Salvation) is there in four Vedas and not Purann moksh - absolute salvation .Moksh itself has a meaning absolute salvation because there is no any temporarily salvation in Vedas. So no discussion can be continued on this word " absolute Salvation". Otherwise please quote any Ved mantra.

Swamiji's response as follows:
1a) "Braham sutra 4/2/8 clarifies that shuksham sharir of ignorant is up to pralay and of knolwedgest up to Braham prapti. But we can't come to the point based only on this sutra. It is related with the previous and forward sutras. Please study sutra 4/2/15,16 also wherein word "AVIBHAGAH" is qouted. AVIBHAG means during Moksh,salvation or final liberation etc., etc."

1b)" the soul will not loose his original shape as mentioned in Chhandog upnishad 6/9/1,2. Therefore merger (laya) means the soul with his shuksham sharir will not act as this was doing when sea was not merged but will retain his shuksham sharir at the time of merger.( salvation,moksh,total liberation,final liberation,kevalaya pad,samadhi,absolute salvation etc.,) otherwise how soul can enjoy moksh ,pleasure without shuksham sharir. Because soul is unable to do anything without shuksham or sathul sharir"

2) "Please see Braham sutra 4/4/11 wherein Jemini accepts the shuksham sharir in moksh. Please see Chhandog upnishad 7/26/2 wherein it is mentioned that in moksh the soul builts 3,5,11 and thousands i.e., types of body. Because soul can not be divided into bodies"

3) "Please see Kath upnishad 2/6/10 which says that when mind and five senses becomes stable in God i.e., called total salvation. Please See shalok 15 of the same Kath upnishad therein it is said that soul with pure senses and mind enjoys the final liberation"

4) "Suppose in salvation soul has no suksham sharir then how will he enjoy the salvation"

Ram Suri response for question 1a): I quoted the Brahma Sutra IV.2.8 to show that subtle body exists until the soul existed separately from divine. But, once the soul merges in divine, then there is no subtle body. In this regard, you asked me to look sutras IV.2.15&16.
Swami Ramswarup: Please again see the following :-
Vedanta sutra 4/2/15 says," TAANI PAREY TATHA HYAH" Tani = suksham sharir ( with reference to previous sutras) Parey = Per Brahma, Tatha = the same, Hi = because, Aaha = says

Meaning---- because the shastras say therefore suksham sharir is merged in Per Brahma.

Sutra says that suksham Bhoot are merged in Per brahma. A deep study of Vedas and sutra 4/2/16 clarify the meaning of merger (laya). Sutra 4/2/16 says," AVIBHAGO VACHNAT" i.e., merger means "AVIBHAGAHA" and vachnat means based on shastra vachan. So the meaning of Avibhagaha is that the suksham sharir is now separated from sathul sharir but does not loose its original qualities but this suksham sharir does not work while it was with shathul sharir. The meaning of merger of suksham sharir is not defined that the suksham sharir has also become Brahma and has lost his original qualities. It is clarified by Chhandogya upnishad 6/9/1-2 that honey bees take nectar from different kinds of flowers/ trees but when the bee makes honey, then it's difficult to say that which nectar belongs to which tree. But still it is a materialistic example. Being separated from trees the different nectar do not carry their own taste because they are separated from trees. So when suksham sharir is separated from sathul sharir, then suksham sharir does not work as it worked with sthool sharir. Therefore the merger (laya) does not mean to loose the original qualities.

Ram Suri: Let us see what these sutras say. Brahma Sutra IV.2.15 (Tani pare tatha hyaha) says the following:
Tani=those; Pare=in the divine; Tatha=thus, so; Hi=because; Aha=says (who says: the sruti says). It means that the sense organs of him (who had experienced the divine) are merged in divine upon this person's death of physical body.
Swami Ramswarup: ORGAN:--- organ do not come in suksham sharir, organs are burnt but suksham sharir can't be burnt (Braham sutra 4/2/9 refers). Physical body is destroyed but not suksham.

Ram Suri: In this regard, please also vide Phasna Upanishad 6.5. The essence of this Upanishad quote is that all individual identities of soul are merged in divine, and they no more will have the individual consciousness, but will attain the divine consciousness in a similar way as rivers after merging in sea will loose their individual identities and become the sea, which is bigger in size (astangachanthi = disappears; namarupe=names and forms; bhidyate=lost). I once again request you not to look for technical words in my answers in the references I quoted. I only gave the meaning of the reference quoted. If you keep on looking for them, then we will deviate away from our main discussion. Therefore, this sutra with Upanishad background says that subtle body and other individual identities are vanished upon merging in divine. Hence, this sutra is not supporting your argument.
Swami Ramswarup: And as regards river and sea I have already clarified. Please do not repeat. If required then please quote Ved mantra or upnishad or shastras' shalok.

Ram Suri: Now let us see what Brahma Sutra IV.2.16 says. It says 'Avibhago vachanat'. Its meaning is as follows: Avibhagah=non-distinction; Vachanat=due to the statement of scripture.
Swami Ramswarup: No please based on Panninni Muni's Ashtadhyi and Mahbhashya the meaning after studying full Braham sutra 4/2/16 the meaning comes--- " AVIBHAGO VACHNAT" i.e., merger means "AVIBHAGAHA" and vachnat means based on shastra vachan. So the meaning of Avibhagaha is that the suksham sharir is now separated from sathul sharir but does not loose its original qualities but this suksham sharir does not work while it was with shathul sharir. The meaning of merger of suksham sharir is not defined that the suksham sharir has also become Brahma and has lost his original qualities. It is clarified by Chhandogya upnishad 6/9/1-2 that honey bees take nectar from different kinds of flowers/ trees but when the bee makes honey, then it's difficult to say that which nectar belongs to which tree. But still it is a materialistic example. Being separated from trees the different nectar do not carry their own taste because they are separated from trees. So when suksham sharir is separated from sathul sharir, then suksham sharir does not work as it worked with sthool sharir. Therefore the merger (laya) does not mean to loose the original qualities.

Ram Suri: This sutra conveys the meaning that the soul is non-distinct with divine according to the statements made in the scriptures (Prasna Upanishad, 6.5).
Swami Ramswarup: Atharvaveda mantra 7/80/1 says that Almighty God has unlimited kala i.e., beyond kala but soul while taking human body has to study Vedas and do Ashtang yoga etc., by which he gets 16 kalas and not unlimited kalas of Brahma. So at the time of salvation, the soul realises God and merriment. And in that merriment the soul for the time being forgets himself but again the soul ( after merriment) attains the 16 kalas and Samadhi stage. That is why , Samkhya shastra sutra 3/78 says, "JEEVANMUKTASHCH" i.e., an alive Yogi who has attained salvation is required to preach and not alive Brahma. Otherwise Kapil Muni again says in sutra 3/81 that " ITRATHA ANDHPARMPARA" i.e., if a yogi having knowledge of four Vedas and having Samadhi stage after practising Ashtang yoga is not alive then wrong interpretation of Ved mantras and shastras will be started i.e., a custom of blind society will start functioning.

Ram Suri: It means that according to this Upanishad, the soul also does not possess the subtle body after merging. Again this sutra is also not supporting your argument.Why did you give these two references at all?
Swami Ramswarup: References were given for your study and again are being given with more clarification please.

Ram Suri: You wanted to prove that soul should have a subtle body even after attaining salvation.
Swami Ramswarup: No please. It is not possible as per description of sutras above.

Ram Suri: On the same opinion, you have argued that in the absence of subtle body, how a soul would enjoy the merriments of salvation. But, by quoting the above two Brahma Sutras references, you have now proving my arguments unknowingly.
Swami Ramswarup: No please. With the blessings of God, I know based on four Vedas, shastras, upnishads and other ancient Brahmin Granths. I welcome you to please study four Vedas, which is our birthright, and then think to use word "unknowingly". I have given above the true meaning of Braham sutra and would request you to please consult with Acharya who is a philosopher of four Vedas.

Ram Suri: Now, please do not say the term 'soul' is not described here or the term 'divine' is found in this sutra. This meaning is conveyed upon the subject of the sutras of previous and later topics.
Swami Ramswarup: The previous topic of sutra 4/2/15 is telling about merger and topic of sutra 4/2/16 is telling the meaning of merger i.e., Avibhag. And hence the difference.

Ram Suri: Therefore, the two Brahma Sutra references quoted by you above do not support you at all, but proves the fact that there won't be any subtle body and organs for a soul that has merged in divine for absolute salvation. Your reply is awaited.
Swami Ramswarup: Reply already given and has now also been given but based on four Vedas.

Ram Suri response for 1b): Sir, now please come back to your reference of Chandogyo Upanishad, 6.9.1&2, as quoted by you and asked me to look, Apparently, you did not understand the essence of the above Chandogyo Upanishad reference. Here Uddalaka is explaining the fate of individual souls when they reach divine. Now, please read it very carefully, and do not look for individual words of my explanation in this reference. I am only giving the meaning of this reference. Therefore, I request you to read it carefully and grasp the meaning of it. In this reference, in order to make his son understand, the father gives an analogy. The analogy is related with the collection of essence of flowers by honey-bees from various flowers. The bees finally prepare honey. Now, this honey is produced due to collection of different essences collected from various flowers. This honey, once made, cannot distinguish the essence of one flower from another flower. It means that no particular essence of a flower can be recognized by the mass of honey. But nevertheless, this honey is produced by the collection of all essences from various flowers by the bees. But after the honey is made, there is no individual consciousness for the essences, obtained from different flowers, to think that, "I am obtained from so and so flower" like that. In other words, they have no individual thinking of their essences. Because no individual thinking is present, can we here say that honey is not made of these essences?
Swami Ramswarup: In dreams soul sees his past and present experienced scenes please. And hence no matter of salvation. This is a stage of a yogi who has attained samadhi (salvation) after study of Vedas and practice of Ashtang yoga. So far the period the yogi is realising God and realising merriment, he has also forgotten himself like the nectar which made honey but it does not mean that the soul of a yogi has become God. The soul after realisation would again realize himself (soul) and will remain like Vyas Muni, Guru Vashishth, Vishwamitr etc., and after a stipulated time the soul will leave his body and will remain in space in merriment at the stage of salvation. The soul will never become God.

Ram Suri: Individual essences from different flowers are present in the honey, but once they are merged together and formed into honey, that individuality of each essence from different flower is vanished. In other words, each essence will not think that "I am collected from so and so flower" etc. Instead, they acquire the consciousness of honey. Now, why this analogy is said by father to his son? The reason is that by this type of analogy, the father is implying that that is what would happen to the individual soul upon entry of pure divine. This may also happen sometimes temporarily for humans in case of dream state. But this entry is an unconscious type, and it is temporary till the dream lasts. Upon waking up from sleep, this is gone. It means that the soul of a divine experienced person will enter consciously into divine and merges, while in case of ignorant persons, this is temporary, and upon waking up, he is still the same ignorant person, caught in life after life in the world. This particular Upanishad reference also confirms my stand on this topic that after merging of soul in divine, the individual consciousness is lost and will have a divine consciousness. Now, please do not say here that Vedas never say that honey has also consciousness or Vedas did not say that honey has a soul or soul is not made of honey etc.
Swami Ramswarup: Yes please the materialistic examples give us idea to understand some points but cannot be accepted hundred percent true in case of God who has made them. So Rishi Vyas has given the best example of bee to understand salvation. Absorption of honey is not forever, it will be eaten or destroyed one day.

Ram Suri: This is where one has to contemplate what is the meaning of this reference or for that matter any other reference. Instead, if we look for literal meaning or technical words in the references, then we will never understand anything in spiritualism.
Swami Ramswarup: To know real meaning of Ved, shastra, upnishad, Rigveda mantra 1/164/45 says that..

Ram Suri response for question 2): You have quoted Brahma Sutra IV.4.11 (Bhavam jaiminirvikalpamananat) to prove that soul has a subtle body.
Swami Ramswarup: Subtle means elusive body. At the time of death, sthool sharir is burnt and suksham sharir remains with soul always.

Ram Suri: According to this sutra, it means that Jaimini says that soul has a subtle body and organs. It is true. The same is confirmed in Chandogya Upanishad, 7.26.2 also. But it does not mean that your argument is correct in light of this sutra. We have to see under what conditions the above is applied to the soul. For that purpose, let us see Brahma Sutra IV.4.13 (Tanvabhave sandhyavadupapatteh). It means: Tanvabhave=in the absence of (subtle) body; Sandhyavad= like a dream state which stands midway between waking and deep sleep; Upapatteh= this is reasonable. The meaning of it is that in the absence of subtle body and organs, the soul experiences the merriments like in a dream state. Now let us see what the immediate Brahma Sutra IV.4.14. (Bhave jagradvat) says in this regard. According to this sutra, it is as follows: Bhave=when the (subtle) body exists; Jagradvat=like in waking state. The meaning of this sutra is that in the presence of subtle body and organs, the soul enjoys the merriments like in a waking state. When we take both these sutras together, it will have the meaning that a soul will have a subtle body, and can enjoy merriments with or without subtle body. Please remember that this soul has not yet merged in divine for absolute salvation. Therefore, as per these two sutras, the soul can have a subtle body up to this point. But our aim here is to find out the truth if the soul will have a subtle body etc permanently even after merging in divine for absolute salvation. Your argument that soul will always have a subtle body is not valid here even before this soul has merged in divine. Because, as per IV.4.13, the soul can be without a subtle body and organs, and still can enjoy the merriments. On the basis of support from Chandogya Upanishad, 7.6.2, the Brahma Sutra IV.4.15 says that this soul can also multiply into several forms. All sutras and Upanishad references in this regard are correct. But you missed a very important point here, and thus have a lot of confusion on your part. In fact this point is the very crux of the whole topic. The soul described in Sutras IV.4.11 to the end of the chapter, is nothing but the one, which is not yet merged in divine for absolute salvation. It means that those above references are concerned with the soul that is present at that Brahman (brought to this Brahman by amanava purusha), and to whom Jaimini by mistake assumed to be the supreme Brahman (Vide Brahma Sutra IV.3.12). However, Jaimini's assumption was refuted in sutra IV.3.14 (Na cha karye pratipattyabhisandhih). It means: Na=not; Cha=and; Karye=Brahman (lower one, but not supreme nirgun Brahman); Pratipati=realization of divine; Abhisandhih=desire; (Pratipatti-abhisandhih=the desire to attain or realize the divine). The meaning of this is that the desire to attain divine cannot make the soul to attain the lower Brahman, which is localized at one place (as evidenced by the fact that amanava purusha guides the soul to Brahman. It means that amanava purusha leads the soul from a particular place to the place of Brahman. Since this Brahman is localized at a particular area, he is not absolute divine). Therefore, the sutra IV.4.11 you quoted is concerned with the soul that is still at this Brahman (lower), and will stay there till pralaya, at which time everything merges in divine (IV.3.10) and hence no birth for them (Sutra IV.4.22).
Swami Ramswarup: The jad universe is merged in prakriti and not in divine. Please refer Rigveda mantra 1/24/1-2, which say about rebirth.

Ram Suri: The Chandgyo Upanishad reference (7.26.2) is concerned with Brahma Sutra IV.4.15, and is concerned about the soul present at this Brahman (lower), and before the pralaya. I have called this lower Brahman as a Lord Brahma, and his place as Brahma Lok. But you simply dismissed it without thinking properly.
Swami Ramswarup: Braham lok as per Vedas is human body by which we can attain salvation. Braham is only one and there is no other Braham equivalent to this Braham.(Shevtashwaro upnishad 3/8 refers)

Ram Suri: After seeing confusion on your part, I am not sure whether you know that this soul in the current topic has reached the Brahman (not the supreme divine) by devayani path. I am also adding one more sentence here to make the things more clear for you. When a person experiences divine (jeevan mukta) while living on earth, he won't go through devayani path. The conclusion of all this information is that your argument that soul has a subtle body after obtaining absolute salvation is not true.
Swami Ramswarup: This soul has swa sankalp sharir in his natural stage and uses eye, tongue, ear etc., during salvation (Kathopnishad)

Ram Suri: I have refuted all your arguments and understandings in light of scriptural references and support. Do you have any particular stand now to take? Now, please do not say that this does not suit from Vedas or Vedas do not believe in Upanishads. Let's be honest. I will wait for your reply.
Swami Ramswarup: Brahma sutra 4/4/11---- Bhaav = to occur. Acharya Gemini accepts the suksham sharir during salvation. Chhandogya upnishad 7/26/2 says the soul in salvation becomes one type, three types, five types, nine types, eleven types etc. here the soul cannot be of so many types, so without suksham sharir it is not possible.

Baadri Acharya, father of Vyas Muni says that during salvation, the soul with mann gets the merriment of Moksh. So there remains soul and mann and not indriyan ( Brahma sutra 4/4/10). Then Gemini accepts mann and suksham sharir( 4/4/11). Vyas jee accepts both Bhaav and abhaav (4/4/12) kathopnishad 2/6/10,11,14,15 say during salvation Mann and indriyan remain. Yask Muni's Shatpath Brahmin Granth kand 14 says,: in moksh the soul remains in brahm anand (salvation) .the soul does not have body organs but now the soul remains in his own shape with his natural qualities. So when in salvation the soul wants to listen then ears, to touch skin, to see eyes, to taste tongue, to smell nose, to think mind, to determine mind, to remember chitt and for ahankar the soul get his own ahankar power. The soul has body based on his own desire therefore soul attains salvation, merriment ( moksh sukh by his own desire). Kathopnishad Adh.2 walli 6 shalok 10 says, " YAD PANCHAVATISHTHANTE GYANANI MANSA SAHA BUDDHISHCH NA VICHESHTATE TAMAHUHU PARMAAN GATIM" meaning when pure mann with five perceptions ( gyan indriyan )and mind remains with soul it is called paramgati i.e., salvation. This is called suksham sharir. Because soul in salvation (moksh) can never be God. If soul could be God then soul needs not to desire, does not need ear, tongue, skin etc., in salvation.

Ram Suri response for questions 3&4): Sir! You are again confused here. Your earlier stand is that salvation is meant for souls. You have also said soul cannot do any sadhana alone, without taking the help of a human physical body. Katha 2/6/10 reference you quoted is concerned to a yogi (a physical body with a soul; and doing spiritual sadhana). Now do not look for the terms like 'physical body or soul etc in this reference. The summary of this reference is that when the five senses are controlled and become motionless, then such a state is called 'paramapadam'. Who will keep the senses under control and motionless? A Soul cannot do it.
Swami Ramswarup: Please see the meaning above.

* Topic: Do other lokas and gods exist in space?
Swamiji's previous Ans: 1a) "IN Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE HERE ONLY, According to karmas. Therefore the meaning of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh"

1b) "One side you please accept only one God and on the other side you say about so many Gods"

1c) "If there is only one God as Vedas say then the God is Almighty and needs no assistance of Gods to create,nurses and destroy the universe"

Ram Suri present response to 1a): Sir! Your interpretation is not acceptable. There are many instances in Gita where Lord Krishna indicated the existence of various lokas and gods in space. Please see Gita, and analyze carefully. You will certainly get the answer.
Swami Ramswarup: In Vedas lokas mean planet like sun, earth etc., which are there in space but controlled by only one Almighty God.

Ram Suri present answer for 1b): I have always said that there is only one divine. But there are many gods. Please vide Gita, 11/6, 15, 22 slokas as a proof to show the existence of gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Geeta 11/6, Yajurveda mantra 40/5 says that God is everywhere in our body as well as in out of body. Similarly is the world. So a Yogeshwar like Shri Krishna is empowered to say like this. But the shalokas do not prove that God needs any help from anybody.

Ram Suri present answer for 1c): You have said that you believe in Lord Krishna's Gita. It means that you believe what ever is mentioned in Gita. Now, please see 4/6 to8 slokas to confirm that divine does come in various forms in the world for some specific purposes.
Swami Ramswarup: I have already told that Bhagwat Geeta is a pious and true holy book but the meaning thereof is to be briefed by a present Yogeshwar who knows Vedas. As regards Shalok 4/6 the God is immortal, takes no birth, God is eternal and creates universe. These qualities of God are true as said in this shaloka. Rigveda mantra 10/129/ 7 says that God commands on Prakriti-- the non-alive. So this is true. Yajurveda mantra 31/ 5 says that the world is Viraat and Viraat is the name of God. God is omnipresent, so is Viraat. So the creation of the God is Viraat and this is a quality of God being in form in the shape of Viraat being omnipresent. As regards shaloka 4/7-8, these are the pious personal views of Yogeshwar Shri Krishna. Yajurveda mantra 32/3 clarifies that God is always formless.

Ram Suri's previous reply: "If they (heaven etc) really exist on the earth itself, or if they do not exist at all anywhere else also, then why Lord Krishna would say, " If you die in the battle field you will attain heaven and enjoy there. Once the body dies, then where is the question of enjoying anything on earth if there is no heaven"

Swamiji's previous answer: "Enjoyment is always gained by soul with the help of body as per Vedas one takes birth in house of a king or the richest or in minister's house etc., this is his swarg based on previous pious deeds and he should again continue worship and pious deeds to realise God otherwise his swarg time will be finished like bankrupt and he will have to face the consequences under the Vedic law by God. Second one takes birth in a lowest and poorest house, where thousands of problems,illness,quarrels etc., are faced,this is his narak. Salvation is another stage apart from swarg and narak. And is also enjoyed by the soul through suksham sharir"

Ram Suri present answer: Your understanding about existence of swarga is totally incorrect. Please see Gita 6/41, wherein Lord Krishna says that an unsuccessful yogi after enjoying at other lokas will born in a good family, or in a rich family. Now as per your own understanding, if this enjoyment of swarg takes place only on Earth, (to indicate as a heaven) that means that the unsuccessful yogi has already born and enjoying on the Earth. Right? If it is correct, then why Lord Krishna would say again that, "after enjoying in other lokas, he will born in good or rich families"? As per your understanding, he (the unsuccessful yogi) is already born and enjoying on the earth. Why should the word 'abhijayate' is used here in this sloka? Your understanding is not matching with the teachings of Lord Krishna in Gita, and therefore, your claim that swarg is present only on Earth is totally wrong sir. Also your opinion that soul enjoys through subtle body is not 100% correct. It is only partially correct. Soul can also enjoy in the absence of subtle body. After merging in divine the soul will not have any subtle body as per scriptures, shown in my above answers. Please vide them.
Swami Ramswarup: Loka means the body, which is attained by soul, Yog bhrashta also attains again human body in a repeated family where he continues his spiritual path and this wonderful birth is due to the previous births' pious deeds. Mainly the loka means the body (birth) here.

Swamiji's previous response: "IN Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE HERE ONLY, According to karmas. Therefore the meaning of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh"
Ram Suri present response: Sir! I have noticed many contradicting statements in your answers. Contradictions arise due to lack of proper understanding of the scriptures. In your above answer too, you are making two contradicting statements. One side you are saying that swarg is present on the earth itself, thus ruling out the possibility of a separate existence for swarg in space. On the other hand, you are saying that the meaning of swarg, as per Vedas is moksh. Let us see how the term swarg is applied to Gita 2/37 sloka in terms of salvation as per your understanding of Vedas. Here, Lord Krishna says to Arjun that, "if you die in the battle field, then you will go to heaven and enjoy there". "On the other hand, if you win the battle, then you will enjoy the kingdom". Here, as per your understanding, swarg=salvation. It means that if Arjun dies in the battle field, he would go to swarg, that is, he will get salvation. But I do not agree with this, because, at that point of time (in the war), Arjun is not qualified to get salvation, even though he is a good person, and a good friend of Lord Krishna. How do we know it? Before going to the answer, let us understand few things first. Controlling of mind and senses is highly required for anyone for attaining salvation. Now, please see 6/34 Gita sloka, where Arjun is saying that mind is very strong and turbulent, and difficult than controlling of air. From this it is clear that Arjun doesn't have complete control over his mind at the time of war also. Since without controlling mind etc, it is not possible to attain salvation, it means that Arjun is not qualified to get salvation at the time of war. But because Lord Krishna says, "If you die in the war, you will go to swarg to enjoy", under this context, swarg cannot be equal to salvation. Therefore, according to your understanding the term swarg is not equal to salvation (moksh). Then what is the meaning of swarg? You have an opinion that swarg is only present on earth. But this is also wrong. Because, as per Gita 9/20, Indra, the king of gods is present, and thus swarg is also present as per the same rule. Therefore, swarg is a place for enjoyment in space. It is not good to aim heaven if some one is spiritually inclined.

Ram Suri's previous reply: "In Gita, many instances are quoted to confirm the existence of different gods and lokas. For example, 8/16 clearly indicates the existence of various lokas, the highest lok being the Brahma lok in space"
Swamiji's previous answer: "Geeta shalok 8/16 is based on the knowledge of yajurveda mantra 31/3, wherein it is mentioned that from one part (padah) of the God the universe is created having three lokas which are destroyed but above all three padah purushah (God) amritam divi i.e., immortal and above three lokas"
Ram Suri present reply: Good, and I accept. But you did not answer whether you accept the existence of Brahma Lok as per Gita 8/16 or not. Therefore, your above answer is incomplete. Please clarify if you accept the existence of Brahma Lok as per 8/16.

Swamiji's previous answer: "Braham lok means where Braham lives according to Yajurveda mnatra 40/1. It is said,"ISHAWASYAM IDAM SARVAM YAT KINCH JAGATTYAAM JAGAT" here two jagats arethere.1. JAR JAGAT (THREE LOKAS) 2. Chetan jagat (souls) the God lives in these jagats,so these are Braham loka"
Swami Ramswarup: As I already told the swarg- narak is only on the earth. To get birth in human life, based on previous pious deeds and to enjoy with every goods is swarg and to get birth in a poor family and to bear miseries etc., is a narak but in salvation to get the merriment is another swarg. So it is not contradictory. Geeta shalok 2/37 is also based on Saamveda mantra 1409 that a warrior if dies in war attains salvation (moksh). So Geeta is only understood after studying Vedas, as also said by Shri Krishna that He is Saamveda in four Vedas. (Geeta shalok 10/22) So Arjuna though was not a yogi at the time of war and was also not able to attain salvation but Shri Krishna, a philosopher of four Vedas and Yogeshwar is telling, based on Saamveda mantra 1409 that a warrior and not a Yogi here is competent to get salvation. This shalok (10/22) is also based on Atharvaveda mantra 10/7/20, "SAMANI YASYA LOMANI TAM SKAMBHAM BRUHI" i.e., whose Saamveda mantras are like body pores, He is God and God has no body pores. But the mantras meaning is that the power who has preached Upasana kand in Saamveda, He is God. So to know about Yogeshwar Krishna, one will have to worship God according to Saamveda. In Vedas, Indra means God according to situation and Indra means a man who controls his indriyan (senses, perceptions and mind). That is why Rigveda says," INDRAHA SOM PEETYE" i.e., a Yogi who controls his indriyan, he drinks SOM and SOM means the experience of merriment of realising God. So Geeta shalok 9/20,21 etc., say the philosophy of four Vedas that the man who follows the path of Rigveda (knowledge), Yajurveda (karmas-deeds), and Saamveda( Upasana-worship-Yoga etc.,) he realises God in salvation i.e., drinks SOM. As also said in Rigveda mantra 10/119/1-13 about drinking of SOM. And comes back, according to Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2. I would request you to please go through the Vedas because Vedas are not based on Geeta but Geeta is based on Vedas. Even all shastras etc., are based on four Vedas.

Ram Suri present reply: So, as per your above understanding, those souls attained this lok (Braham - from your above answer) will also come back to samsar to take birth after birth. Because, Lord Krishna in 8/16 says that attainment up to the so called, 'Brahma Lok' you have described above is also subjected to return to the samsar to take birth after birth. That means, as per your understanding, attaining of this divine (that is, god, as you call him) is also subject to return to samsar for birth. Please think over it again.
Ram Suri's previous answer: "If it is so, then why would Lord Krishna say that who so ever understands 1000 yugas as a day and another 1000 yugas as a night for Lord Brahma would understand the real meaning of day and night (8/17)"
Swami Ramswarup: Shashtra says Fundamental law of God can never be changed. Rigveda mantra 10/190/3 says, " SURYA CHANDRMASAU DHATA YATHAPURVAMKALPYAT" Means the sun, moon, earth etc., of this universe are same as of the previous destructed universe, so is about the rules and regulations when four Vedas have not told about any swarg- narak in space, so the fundamental law can not be changed.

I have already clarified about Braham lok, that the body of human being is Braham lok where soul realises God. God means the only God who has unlimited qualities with creation, nursing, destruction and again creation etc., and no one else has these qualities. Brahma----God never comes back to Sansaar, as you said, but God creates sansaar and becomes omnipresent. As regards 1000 yugas as a day etc., as per Geeta shalok 8/17 it is related to creation and destruction i.e., one Brahma day = the period of one creation and Brahma ratri is a period of destruction.
17,280,00 years = one satyug,
12,960,00 years = Treta,
8,640,00 years = dwapur and
4,320,00 years of Kalyug.

When these four yugas (periods) are passed once in 1000 time, then it is called one Braham Din. And similarly the Braham ratri.

Swamiji's previous answer: "It is in accordance with Rigveda mandal 10, Manu smriti 1/64 to 75, Please relating to creation and counting of duration of the earth only"
Ram Suri present answer: Your understanding is wrong sir again. Please see Gita 8/17&19 slokas. The time periods described above do not refer to earth. Please be realistic while claiming anything. In 8/16, Lord Krishna refers Lord Brahma, in 17th sloka, in continuation from 16th sloka, Lord Krishna compares the time period with respective to this Lord Brahma. Please see 18th sloka, where Lord Krishna talks about creation and destruction of universe during day and night time of Lord Brahma. In all these slokas, reference of Lord Brahma is continuously used. I would like to give you a clue, who this Lord Brahma is. He is the one to whom the soul is taken to by amanava purusha. He is the same chatur muk Brahma, who sits in a Lotus flower also. But I know that you won't believe in the existence of Lord chatur muk Brahma. Therefore, I request you to see Gita 11/15 sloka, where Arjun says having seen many gods, Rishis, Lord Brahma in Lotus flower etc in the Universal form of Lord Krishna (divine). Can you please think your above answer in light of this information, and let me know your opinion on this. In addition to the above information and references, I am quoting the following references for your convenience to prove the existence of other lokas and gods.
Swami Ramswarup: As regards Uttaryan, Dakshinayan and description of yugas etc., please refer chapter 1 and shaloka 64 to 75 also of Manu Smriti, which clarify the day of Braham etc. So this is regarding calculation of time of the yugas and does not say about any separate loka or Brahma. So the reference of Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 is about creation and Manu Smriti 1/64-75 is regarding day of Brahma i.e., duration of the earth clarified above and it was correct please but I do not know why you consider it incorrect. So I would again request you to please study Rigveda mandal 10 about creation by God from Prakriti and mention of souls too. And Manu Smriti shalok 1/64-75 please regarding Brahma ka Din. Actually the words used by Vyas Muni in Bhagwat Geeta are all from four Vedas and until we study the Vedas, the meaning cannot be understood properly.

Ram Suri: 3/11: Lord Krishna says, " If you (people) please the gods (remember here, not divine - but gods) by doing so and so activities, the gods in turn will please you" From this it is clear that gods do really exist.
Swami Ramswarup: I already clarified from Shatpath Brahmin Granth of Yask Muni that the meaning of Dev that its meaning is he who ahs studied four Vedas and has done practice of Ashtang yoga. So the meaning of Dev-Deva-Devan etc., (according to Sanskrit Vyakarann --- SUPTINGANTAM PADAM) mentioned in shalok ; in English may be Gods, but sense cannot be changed, sense will remain. He (Vidwan Acharya) who knows Vedas and not any other Dev, who lives in swarg etc., and from "Yaj" dhatu "DEVPUJA,, SANGTIKARANN,DAAN" is made which means we must obey the Dev, and by doing Yajna and service we must please the Deva (Acharya) and this is the path of our well-being.

Ram Suri: 4/1: Lord Krishna says, "I instructed this yoga to sun god, who in turn instructed to .." From this it is clear that there is a god of sun. One may say here that the name sun does not refer to 'Surya god' whom we think, but it may refer to a king or a great person in the history. This notion is wrong, because, in 4/4, from Arjun' s question, it is clear that the term 'sun' does not refer to a king or any great person.
4/25: Lord Krishna says, "some yogis worship gods .." It is clear from this statement that gods also exist.
Swami Ramswarup: In Vedas, there are five kinds of Yagya (Yajna) ---
Brahma Yagya = to listen preach of Vedas,
Dev Yagya = to worship God by Agnihotra,
Baliveshwa Dev Yagya = to offer part of food that is prepared daily in kitchen, to animals, birds etc.,
Atithi Yagya = to serve Him, who is wise knowing Vedas, and
Pitar Yagya = services to a Yogi/Rishi who knows traditional knowledge about creation from Vedas.

So in this shlok 4/25, Dev Yagya is being advised . Vedas are proof, so the meaning is true. In Yajurveda 31/16 it is too said, "DEVAHA YAJYEN YAJYAM AA YAJANT" means that Devaha (philosopher of Vedas) worship God by performing Yajna. Yaskacharya says in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth that, "YAJAU VAI SHRESHTHATAMAM KARMAHA: i.e., Yagya is the best worship and the best pious deed in the universe.

Ram Suri: 4/31: Lord Krishna says, "without sacrifice one cannot live happily in this lok or any other lok .." From this it is clear that different lokas really exist.
Swami Ramswarup: This Geeta shlok 4/31 is based on Atharvaveda mantra 8/2/1 wherein it is mentioned that we must eat "IMAAM AMRITASYA SHNUSHTIM" = Yagya (Yajna) shesham Amritam i.e., the last left over part of food of a performed Yagya etc., to gain long, happy life without violence and this shlok also has the same meaning please and does not tell about any lokas. So here the loka means the present human body and the other lokas mean the bodies, which will be awarded by God according to our karmas in the next birth.

Ram Suri: 6/40: Lord Krishna says, "people doing pious activities will never be destroyed either in this world or other world .,." This also shows the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Here also the meaning of lokas are same. "Eha" word is based on Ved mantras like Yajurveda mantra 40/2, so Eha means "here in this lok" (The earth) and "Amutr" means in next lok i.e., next birth on the earth. So Vedas clearly say that he, who has done pious deeds according to Vedas will not meet with sorrows, difficulties, poverty or the bodies of the animals etc.

Ram Suri: 6/41: Lord Krishna says, "an unsuccessful yogi will reach the pious entities lokas for enjoyment ." This also confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Same as above. I.e., loka means the body which is received in the next birth and earth also is a loka, because we can not ignore the basic principle of Vedas that in the space there are so many planets which are also under the command and control of one Almighty God. But the swarg lokas where God's like Indra etc., live, this is not told by Vedas, please study Vedas.

Ram Suri: 7/20: Lord Krishna says, ". people with materialistic desires will worship gods ." This shows the existence of different gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Here the meaning of different Dev is other than God and in Yajurveda mantra 40/9 it is said that those who do not worship God but worship other than God, they go to darkness, i.e., they take next birth in animal/bird's bodies etc. So the worship other than God is sin, is being taught by Shri Krishna here. Please see that Yaskacharya has told the meaning of Dev as I already mentioned above. But in Vedas, one word has so many meanings according to situation. For example, Indra means Yogi and Indra means God also etc. for example, in Sanskrit, "payaha" means milk and water too. So exact meaning of payaha will be according to situation. So is the case of Dev etc.

Ram Suri: 7/22: Lord Krishna says, "I fulfill their desires through these gods."
Swami Ramswarup: The meaning must have the fundamental law of Vedas. Yajurveda chapter 40, mantras 9 to 12 state that he who worship other than one Almighty God or materialistic world then they are merged with illusion and get sorrows etc. So the meaning of this shlok comes that he who worships other than God he gets the result as per Vedas, i.e., bad result. When Shri Krishna says that those who go to Shri Krishna, they only get peace, then how Shri Krishna will say that those who go to other than Krishna they will also be benefited by other Dev. So no other Gods please, God being Almighty and independent.

Ram Suri: 7/23: Lord Krishna says, "People of less intelligence worship gods for materialistic gains .." This clearly shows the existence of different gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Here Shri Krishna says the result of worship other than God, those people get death etc. at the time of Geeta, the karma kand to worship different types of Devtas had been started and Shri Krishna warns not to worship those Devaha.

Ram Suri: 8/16 - 19: Lord Krishna says, "attainment up to Brahma Lok ; terms like Brahma are found.." This confirms the existence of Lord Brahma ji.
Swami Ramswarup: Brahm lok means human body where by real sadhna God is realised. If not then next body is given which is called next loka or perlok and loka means the bodies of animals, birds etc., and this lok also throws light that all those lokas are of death and birth. Some people say that there is no other Braham lok then too the existence of other lokas must not be there.

Ram Suri: 9/20: Lord Krishna says, ".. attains heaven of Indra for enjoyments ." This confirms the existence of Indra, the king of gods, in the heaven.
9/21: Lord Krishna says, "people who are after the sensual pleasure will go to heavens and then finally returns to this mundane world .." This confirms the existence of heaven and the fate of the souls after.
9/23 - 24: Lord Krishna says, "people who worships other gods with faith actually worship me only ., but the worship is not recognized ." This also confirms the existence of gods.
9/25: Lord Krishna says, "people who worships gods will attain gods, those who worships to ancestors will attain them, those who worships spirits will attain them . " This confirms the existence of gods, ancestors, spirits separately.
Swami Ramswarup: Based on four Vedas I have already mentioned thirty non-alive devas and five alive devas. And the same is also mentioned in Yagvalkya and Gargi discussion accordingly the meaning comes that those who are worshipping, "Prititva" i.e., mother, father; who are worshipping bhoot i.e., five matters, they are awarded accordingly and those who are worshipping God they only realise God. So the fundamental of this shlok is whatever type of worship is done, accordingly the award is given by Almighty God.

Ram Suri: 10/2 - 3: Lord Krishna says, "even gods ... do not know .., ; I am the lord of all worlds" This is very conclusive evidence to show that there are different lokas in the space.
Swami Ramswarup: In Vedas there are so many mantras like Rigveda mantra 5/51/13, " VISHVEDEVA NO ADYA SWASTYE" deva = Vidwan Acharya who knows Vedas. Vishve = all, therefore Vishvedeva = may all Acharya shower their blessings for our happy life. Based on the Ved mantra Shri Krishna here says that the dev (Acharyas who has not realised yet) with their disciples even do not know me about ganna, Rigveda mantra 5/51/12 says, BRISPATIM SARVGANNAM" Brispati = brihad+ pati, in Vedas here brihad means having the biggest knowledge of four Vedas and pati means master, ganna means jannganana i.e., counting of disciples/ followers. In this shlok Suraha = dev and gannah = followers. So the meaning is accordingly please. That is why I am telling again and again to please study Vedas since Geeta is a preach from Shri Krishna based on four Vedas.

Ram Suri: 10/12 - 15: Arjun uses the names, "great sages like Narad, gods, demons etc.," This confirms the existence of sage Narad - the son of Lord Brahma (the chatur muk Brahma), gods, and demons; and says, "you are the god of gods" to Lord Krishna.
Swami Ramswarup: In Valmiki Ramayan Bal kand Pratham sarg shlok 13, Valmiki says to Shri Ram that Prajapati Samaha i.e., equivalent to God. In Rigveda mantra 1/67/3 the qualities of God have been described and the same description is seen in Yajurveda mantra 7/4-8 ,so is the case of Shri Krishna Mahraj.

Ram Suri: 10/22 - 39: Lord Krishna says, "I am Indra among gods; among of demons, I am lord of wealth; I am Bruhaspathi (the priest of Indra), I am Kumar Swamy; I am Narad; among Gandhrvas, I am Chitradha; among the elephants, I am Airavata; among weapons, I am thunderbolt; among cows, I am Kamadenuv (Surabhi); I am Vasuki; I am god f love; I am Ananta; I am Varuna; I am Aryama; I am Yama; I am sri Krishna; I am Arjun, I am Sukracharya; All these highlight the existence of the following: Indra - the king of gods, having thunderbolt as his weapon, has a Airavata, and has Bruhaspathi as his chief priest. Similarly, the existence of Narad, Kumarswamy, Kamadenuv, Gandharvas, Vasuki, Ananta, Varun, yama, ancestral beings, Sukracharya is proven beyond any doubt.
Swami Ramswarup: Here the highest stage Vibhuti-dignity is being mentioned. There are four Vedas but Saamveda is the highest etc. As regards Indra I have already told above.

Ram Suri: 11/6: Lord Krishna says, " see Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Aswani gods, Marut etc., This means that these personalities are existing in the space.
Swami Ramswarup: These all words are mentioned in Vedas i.e.,
Aditya =1.sun 2. Unbreakable,

Vasus-- 8 vasus like earth, air, space etc., which give place to live (vasna) that is why these are called vasu.

Rudra--- rulanewala i.e., he, who suppress us to weep, these are rudras.

Aswinau = prann and apan, so these all are existing on earth and earth is in space.

Ram Suri: 11/15: Arjun says, " all gods, whole universe, Lord Brahma sitting in Lotus flower (the chtur muk Brahma) all sages, all divine serpents" It confirms the existence of gods, divine serpents, chtur muk Brahma.
11/20: Arjun says, ". all three lokas trembled with fear" This confirms the existence of various lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 11/22: Arjun describes various gods, like, Rudras, Adityas, Vasus, viswa devas, Aswanis, Marutas, fore fathers, Gandhrvas, Yakhas, Siddhas, Asuras. It means that they exist really.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained above please.

Ram Suri: 11/26 - 27: Arjun says, "Bhisma, Drona, Karna etc. are also seen in divine form of Lord Krishna. It should be noted here that Bhisma, Drona etc are living actually at that time of Gita discourse in the battlefield, and hence they are shown in the divine form. Similarly, when different gods etc are shown in the divine form, it means that they also really exist.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 11/37 & 39: Arjun says, "you are the god of gods, even Lord Brahma also does not know your beginning, your are air, yama, fire, varun, moon, Brahma. This confirms the existence of gods and Lord Brahma.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained above please.

Ram Suri: 11/43: Arjun says, "In all three worlds no one equal to you, hence no one is greater than you" This confirms the existence of different worlds.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained above please.

Ram Suri: 11/52: Lord Krishna says, "even gods want this opportunity to see the divine form" This confirms the existence of gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 14/14 & 18: Lord Krishna says, "Persons who die during the development of satva gun will attain the lokas of great sages. This confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained as above please.

Ram Suri: 17/4: Lord Krishna says, "people with satwa gun worships gods, with rajo gun worships Yakhawas and demons, while people with tamo gun worship spirits" From this it is clear that gods, yakhaws, demons and spirits exist.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 17/28: Lord Krishna says, " . if done without faith on divine, it is a waste in this life and other loka" This confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained as above please.

Ram Suri: 18/40: Lord Krishna says, "no body either on the earth, or heaven (gods) are free from trigunas" This confirms the existence of gods.
Swami Ramswarup: So the meaning of shlokas are only acceptable based on Vedas, please. So please study Vedas.

Ram Suri: See the above all references from Gita. It is quite enough to prove that existence of gods, different lokas, which you have dismissed without thinking much. Can you or me or someone else say that Lord Krishna is fooling Arjun by saying the existence of other lokas or gods if they do not really exist? No one can imagine that. This is where the intense faith on divine is highly essential. Because no such things called 'lokas' are seen to our naked eyes in the space, it does not mean that the universe is just empty. Other lokas are present in different space-time dimensions. We all live in four-dimensional world. The universe is not going to end up at just with four dimensions. Therefore, from the above references from Gita, it is crystal clear that different types of gods and lokas exist. Only thing it requires is that one has to open up the antennas to perceive the truths. I will wait for your reply.
Swami Ramswarup: The planets exist as I have already told but the lokas and Deva do not exist, as per Vedas please. I have several times told that Shri Krishna has not preached Geeta. If he could then he had to study Geeta first and then preach. In fact, Shri Krishna studied four Vedas and did ashtang Yoga practice with sakha Sudama, in the ashram of Rishi Sandeepan. Yaskacharya in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth says--- " MANTRADRISHTA ITI RISHIHI " i.e., he who looks ved mantras in his heart by virtue of studying Vedas and hard Ashtang yoga practice, he is a Rishi. Shri Krishna also did so. So at the time of war, the preach delivered by Shri Krishna is based on the knowledge of four Vedas, learnt by Shri Krishna from his Guru. Bhagwat Geeta is an extract of Bhisham Parva and has been named Bhagwat Geeta and fully accepted heartily. So to know the real meaning of Geeta, we have to study four Vedas and in the Vedas, there is no mention of any lok where Devta rules.

* Topic: Does the soul merge in divine for absolute salvation? Or remain separate from divine forever and enjoy merriments?

Swamiji's reply: Swamiji's previous reply in CAPITAL LETTERS):
1. "YES PLEASE SOUL IS SEPARATE AND ALMIGHTY GOD IS SEPARATE"
2. "FOUR Vedas NEVER SAYS ABOUT ANY TEMPORARILY DISTICTION AND IT IS NOT POSIBLE TOO", "this difference is eternal and can not be changed" 4a. "IN THIS SUTRA (IV.1.19), SAMPADYE MEANS GETS I.E., AFTER BURNING ALL THE KARMAS THE SOUL REALISES GOD AND GETS MOKSH"
4b. "AFTER BURNING ALL THE KARMAS THE SOUL REALISES GOD AND GETS MOKSH"
5. "Salt is dissolved in water but ever will remain salt"


Ram Suri response for 1, 2, 3 and 4a questions: Sir! As per your understanding, soul and divine are different permanently. Can you please tell me who has given this difference between the souls and divine to exist? You may say that it is mentioned in Vedas. What is the guarantee that you have understood the Vedas accurately? Vedas are revealed in enlightened sages very, very long back. It means that Vedas are from divine. When divine does not have either "SANKALP OR VIKALP", then how could divine make these differences to exist when both divine and souls are unborn and have no death? There should be a time point where the difference between divine and the souls should start. When there is no time point for their birth or death, then how do their differences would exist at all? Let us see what Brahma Sutras say in this regard. [IV.1.19 - Bhogenatvitare kshapayitva sampadyate. That is: Bhogena=by enjoyment (of karma); Tu=but; Itare=of the other two works (merits and demerits or puny and sin); Kshapayitva=having exhausted;
Swami Ramswarup: Why one should be afraid of Vedas? The base of whole Geeta is Vedas, then why don't you study the Vedas, as I have. Why are you challenging me and this is not a way to discuss the truth. I have told you that he who knows Vedas is a present Dev and there are so many Dev in India. Please go and study Vedas first. Do you think that eternal knowledge of Vedas is finished now that is why you have given your comments on Vedas that Vedas are revealed in enlightened sages very long back. The Vedas are world's culture, originated in the heart of Rishis, direct from God about one arab, 96 crore, 8 lakhs and 53 thousands years back. It is clear that during that time no books, or sects of present time came into existence. Therefore Vedas are applicable for all human beings, today also. Vedas are not sects. For a long time we have been slaves of Mugals and Britishers, which has effected our Vedas knowledge badly. I remember that when Aurangjeb started burning of our Vedas and hand written holy books by the ancient Rishis, then for more than six months, our culture of Vedas etc., kept in Nalanda and Takshila Universities had been burning continuously , then our Brahmin started learning Vedas by heart. That is why Vedi, Divedi, Tripathi, saved the Vedas and called Vedi (learnt one ved by heart) and so on Divedi and Trivedi. The culture was continued to be burnt during that period. Most respected His Holiness a Acharya named Baannbhatt was going and he heard a weeping voice of a lady. He knocked the door and entered the house and asked the reason of weeping. The lady replied to Baannbhatt that Vedas have been burnt, so now who will give the preach of Vedas to human beings. Acharya Baannbhatt replied, O, Mother do not weep, I am still alive and know whole Vedas by heart. So Vedas can't be finished/ destroyed by any bad element. It has been a bad tendency of some Gurus against the Vedas. They mostly say Vedas are karma kand, Vedas are difficult and have turned the people to listen to them, (present Saint who are against the Vedas) and leave the Vedas and Yajna. So now it has been our duties to study and spread the knowledge of Vedas to human beings. Secondly if the Bhagwat Geeta could have been written by present saints then it was not needed to tally Bhagwat Geeta to Vedas. But it is written by Muni Vyas and his 100% views in Bhagwat Geeta are from Vedas. So every word of the Bhagwat Geeta has the meaning and secret of Vedas. But to our bad luck the comments on Geeta are being written mostly by those who are always away from the knowledge of Vedas, giving their own views and even against the Vedas, Geeta contains Vedic knowledge please. Is it not a wonder that even uneducated and educated from college etc., are giving comments on Geeta? So bundle of personnel's are there, who have written comments on Geeta but Where are those who dare to study Vedas and give comments on Vedas? Those respected personnel are very few and your comments therefore to me, " not to know the real meaning of Vedas" usually tally with the present saints, who are against Vedas. So please first study Vedas which will give you a long happy life.

The moksh is attained by a alive yogi. But he waits till he leaves body. Moksh is not attained after death, also says Kapil Muni in his shastra sutra 3/78 otherwise who will give the experience of moksh to the people. That is why Rigveda mantra 10/154/1 advises that one should study Vedas from a Rishi to achieve good qualities and moksh. Rigveda 10/142/6 says that God which is worshipped by Ved mantras, then the sins of past life etc., are burnt forever. That is why Rigveda mantra 1/67/3 says that Yogi/ Rishi is equivalent to God. But now a days mostly all saints, not having Vedas' knowledge are telling themselves Braham Rishis, or God. From Vedas knowledge/Yoga etc., one is considered equivalent to God but not God.

To know this fact you will have to go to a present Dev. Please go and study first. Vedas are eternal and traditional and therefore are known a t present also. Traditionally. Vedas tell about sankalp or vikalp of God said by you in your question and IKSHANN to create universe. How can any body tell you on computer? This is not traditional way. Have you studied your advaitwad on computer or on telephone? So is the case of Vedas please. I hope you will put up questions after studying the Vedas please.

Ram Suri: Sampadyate=becomes united (with divine)]. The meaning of this sutra is that after having completed the facing of karmas of both types (puny and sin), the soul becomes one with divine. Close analysis would reveal here the follow: Here, the terms, 'Bhogena' means enjoy (not merriment type of enjoys - I hope you understand this difference) that is to face the karmas. Who will face the karmas? A soul alone cannot face the karmas. Similarly, a dead body cannot face the consequences of the karmas. When the soul resides, then the physical body faces the karmas. Right? All living ordinary persons are performing the karmas, and enjoying their consequences. But this sutra uses the term 'sampadyate', meaning 'becoming'. All ordinary persons (doing no sadhana) or their souls cannot be applied with this term (as they will take birth). Therefore, this term, "sampadyate', in this sutra should be understood as concerned about the fate of a jeevan mukta's soul after death essentially. Please understand it very carefully. As per this sutra, the soul in the physical body of a jeevan mukta after divine experience will also wait till the karma (prarabdha karma) is faced. Once, prarabdha karma becomes zero, then the physical body dies, and as per the rule of this sutra, the soul will become united in divine for absolute salvation. In this regard, Chandogya Upanishad,7.14.2) says that, there is some delay for him (jeevan mukta) till he is released from the physical body". Once the physical body of this jeevan mukta dies, after karma= zero, then as per Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 4.4.6, this soul will merge in divine. Even in Mundaka Upanishad 3.28, also confirms the same by giving an example of merging of rivers in sea. Merging of soul in divine will make to loose the individual consciousness and acquiring divine consciousness, like a river after merging in sea

Adwaitvad continued

As replied to Ram Suri's question dated: March 03, 2004
Ram Suri: Namaskar. I have written the answers for you questions or objections with references from scriptures. Some of the subjects are give a topic, and both your' s and my views are shown, along with my present answers. You can verify your statements quoted by me from your previous emails.

Swami Ramswarup: Namaskar. I am happy to receive your reply. Please continue till its finalization.

* Topic: Does soul have a subtle body after absolute salvation?

Swami Ramswarup: Shatpath Brahmin Granth 3/7/6 clarifies that he who has studied four Vedas and has practiced Ashtang Yoga as per Yajurveda mantra 7/4, he is only a perfect Acharya/Rishi/Guru and similarly Kapil Muni in his Samkhya Shastra sutra 1/66 ," AAPTOPDESHAH SHABDAH" says that such Acharya and his words are considered as a proof of four Vedas. Because they have attained the eighth fold path of Ashtang Yoga i.e., Samadhi. Yog Shastra sutra 1/7 also says the similar truth about an Acharya with regard to a proof and also includes that the eternal knowledge of God in the shape of four Vedas, are self proof. So in short, we will have to consider the above said proof to come to a truth.There must not be our own made views or views of these books not written by authentic Rishis. So based on the Rishis' Granths there are eight types of Darshan (proof) ---- PRATAKSHA, ANUMAAN, UPAMAAN, SHABDA, ATIHYA, ARTHAPATTI, SAMBHAV AND ABHAAV. So will have to consider the above proof to come to the truth. Upnishad , shastra and Bhagwat geeta etc., have been written by Rishis based on knowledge of four Vedas only. Generally what happens we study the comments written by those either who are against the Vedas or try to escape from the Vedas saying that the Vedas are difficult which is incorrect. Present explanation must therefore be by an authentic dignity having knowledge of four Vedas. This is basic fundamental and can't be changed. Now we come to the point. Please also study Yog shastra sutra 2/3 --- AVIDYASMITA RAAGDWESHABHNIVESHAPANCHKALESAHA which clarifies that Avidya produces untruth, blind faith etc., in absence of the knowledge of Vedas.

Topic: Does soul have a subtle body after absolute salvation?

Swami Ramswarup: I have mentioned below the proof of being suksham sharir (swa sankalp power) of soul in salvation (moksh). In moksh soul has no sthool sharir but with own desire the soul gets ear, nose, mind etc., to enjoy the moksh merriment, which is called suksham sharir. That is why suksham sharir is unseen. Vedas are only self-proof being the knowledge direct from God. If Rishis and Munis had not studied Vedas, how they could write Upanishads, Valmiki Ramayan, six shastras etc. the Rishis have first praised Vedas in their shastras etc., and not their own written culture. It is a wonder that people for their own suitability escapes themselves not to study Vedas and are only after upnishads etc., whereas the base of upnishads, shastras etc., are four Vedas. The upnishads, shastras yet have no full fledged knowledge as is available in Vedas. So first we must respect our parents then we must love our children please. In Vedas souls, Prakriti and God are the topic alongwith other matters, knowledge and deeds. As I have previously briefed vide Rigveda mandal 10 wherein traitwad is mentioned. Moksh (Salvation) is there in four Vedas and not Purann moksh - absolute salvation .Moksh itself has a meaning absolute salvation because there is no any temporarily salvation in Vedas. So no discussion can be continued on this word " absolute Salvation". Otherwise please quote any Ved mantra.

Swamiji's response as follows:
1a) "Braham sutra 4/2/8 clarifies that shuksham sharir of ignorant is up to pralay and of knolwedgest up to Braham prapti. But we can't come to the point based only on this sutra. It is related with the previous and forward sutras. Please study sutra 4/2/15,16 also wherein word "AVIBHAGAH" is qouted. AVIBHAG means during Moksh,salvation or final liberation etc., etc."

1b)" the soul will not loose his original shape as mentioned in Chhandog upnishad 6/9/1,2. Therefore merger (laya) means the soul with his shuksham sharir will not act as this was doing when sea was not merged but will retain his shuksham sharir at the time of merger.( salvation,moksh,total liberation,final liberation,kevalaya pad,samadhi,absolute salvation etc.,) otherwise how soul can enjoy moksh ,pleasure without shuksham sharir. Because soul is unable to do anything without shuksham or sathul sharir"

2) "Please see Braham sutra 4/4/11 wherein Jemini accepts the shuksham sharir in moksh. Please see Chhandog upnishad 7/26/2 wherein it is mentioned that in moksh the soul builts 3,5,11 and thousands i.e., types of body. Because soul can not be divided into bodies"

3) "Please see Kath upnishad 2/6/10 which says that when mind and five senses becomes stable in God i.e., called total salvation. Please See shalok 15 of the same Kath upnishad therein it is said that soul with pure senses and mind enjoys the final liberation"

4) "Suppose in salvation soul has no suksham sharir then how will he enjoy the salvation"

Ram Suri response for question 1a): I quoted the Brahma Sutra IV.2.8 to show that subtle body exists until the soul existed separately from divine. But, once the soul merges in divine, then there is no subtle body. In this regard, you asked me to look sutras IV.2.15&16.
Swami Ramswarup: Please again see the following :-
Vedanta sutra 4/2/15 says," TAANI PAREY TATHA HYAH" Tani = suksham sharir ( with reference to previous sutras) Parey = Per Brahma, Tatha = the same, Hi = because, Aaha = says

Meaning---- because the shastras say therefore suksham sharir is merged in Per Brahma.

Sutra says that suksham Bhoot are merged in Per brahma. A deep study of Vedas and sutra 4/2/16 clarify the meaning of merger (laya). Sutra 4/2/16 says," AVIBHAGO VACHNAT" i.e., merger means "AVIBHAGAHA" and vachnat means based on shastra vachan. So the meaning of Avibhagaha is that the suksham sharir is now separated from sathul sharir but does not loose its original qualities but this suksham sharir does not work while it was with shathul sharir. The meaning of merger of suksham sharir is not defined that the suksham sharir has also become Brahma and has lost his original qualities. It is clarified by Chhandogya upnishad 6/9/1-2 that honey bees take nectar from different kinds of flowers/ trees but when the bee makes honey, then it's difficult to say that which nectar belongs to which tree. But still it is a materialistic example. Being separated from trees the different nectar do not carry their own taste because they are separated from trees. So when suksham sharir is separated from sathul sharir, then suksham sharir does not work as it worked with sthool sharir. Therefore the merger (laya) does not mean to loose the original qualities.

Ram Suri: Let us see what these sutras say. Brahma Sutra IV.2.15 (Tani pare tatha hyaha) says the following:
Tani=those; Pare=in the divine; Tatha=thus, so; Hi=because; Aha=says (who says: the sruti says). It means that the sense organs of him (who had experienced the divine) are merged in divine upon this person's death of physical body.
Swami Ramswarup: ORGAN:--- organ do not come in suksham sharir, organs are burnt but suksham sharir can't be burnt (Braham sutra 4/2/9 refers). Physical body is destroyed but not suksham.

Ram Suri: In this regard, please also vide Phasna Upanishad 6.5. The essence of this Upanishad quote is that all individual identities of soul are merged in divine, and they no more will have the individual consciousness, but will attain the divine consciousness in a similar way as rivers after merging in sea will loose their individual identities and become the sea, which is bigger in size (astangachanthi = disappears; namarupe=names and forms; bhidyate=lost). I once again request you not to look for technical words in my answers in the references I quoted. I only gave the meaning of the reference quoted. If you keep on looking for them, then we will deviate away from our main discussion. Therefore, this sutra with Upanishad background says that subtle body and other individual identities are vanished upon merging in divine. Hence, this sutra is not supporting your argument.
Swami Ramswarup: And as regards river and sea I have already clarified. Please do not repeat. If required then please quote Ved mantra or upnishad or shastras' shalok.

Ram Suri: Now let us see what Brahma Sutra IV.2.16 says. It says 'Avibhago vachanat'. Its meaning is as follows: Avibhagah=non-distinction; Vachanat=due to the statement of scripture.
Swami Ramswarup: No please based on Panninni Muni's Ashtadhyi and Mahbhashya the meaning after studying full Braham sutra 4/2/16 the meaning comes--- " AVIBHAGO VACHNAT" i.e., merger means "AVIBHAGAHA" and vachnat means based on shastra vachan. So the meaning of Avibhagaha is that the suksham sharir is now separated from sathul sharir but does not loose its original qualities but this suksham sharir does not work while it was with shathul sharir. The meaning of merger of suksham sharir is not defined that the suksham sharir has also become Brahma and has lost his original qualities. It is clarified by Chhandogya upnishad 6/9/1-2 that honey bees take nectar from different kinds of flowers/ trees but when the bee makes honey, then it's difficult to say that which nectar belongs to which tree. But still it is a materialistic example. Being separated from trees the different nectar do not carry their own taste because they are separated from trees. So when suksham sharir is separated from sathul sharir, then suksham sharir does not work as it worked with sthool sharir. Therefore the merger (laya) does not mean to loose the original qualities.

Ram Suri: This sutra conveys the meaning that the soul is non-distinct with divine according to the statements made in the scriptures (Prasna Upanishad, 6.5).
Swami Ramswarup: Atharvaveda mantra 7/80/1 says that Almighty God has unlimited kala i.e., beyond kala but soul while taking human body has to study Vedas and do Ashtang yoga etc., by which he gets 16 kalas and not unlimited kalas of Brahma. So at the time of salvation, the soul realises God and merriment. And in that merriment the soul for the time being forgets himself but again the soul ( after merriment) attains the 16 kalas and Samadhi stage. That is why , Samkhya shastra sutra 3/78 says, "JEEVANMUKTASHCH" i.e., an alive Yogi who has attained salvation is required to preach and not alive Brahma. Otherwise Kapil Muni again says in sutra 3/81 that " ITRATHA ANDHPARMPARA" i.e., if a yogi having knowledge of four Vedas and having Samadhi stage after practising Ashtang yoga is not alive then wrong interpretation of Ved mantras and shastras will be started i.e., a custom of blind society will start functioning.

Ram Suri: It means that according to this Upanishad, the soul also does not possess the subtle body after merging. Again this sutra is also not supporting your argument.Why did you give these two references at all?
Swami Ramswarup: References were given for your study and again are being given with more clarification please.

Ram Suri: You wanted to prove that soul should have a subtle body even after attaining salvation.
Swami Ramswarup: No please. It is not possible as per description of sutras above.

Ram Suri: On the same opinion, you have argued that in the absence of subtle body, how a soul would enjoy the merriments of salvation. But, by quoting the above two Brahma Sutras references, you have now proving my arguments unknowingly.
Swami Ramswarup: No please. With the blessings of God, I know based on four Vedas, shastras, upnishads and other ancient Brahmin Granths. I welcome you to please study four Vedas, which is our birthright, and then think to use word "unknowingly". I have given above the true meaning of Braham sutra and would request you to please consult with Acharya who is a philosopher of four Vedas.

Ram Suri: Now, please do not say the term 'soul' is not described here or the term 'divine' is found in this sutra. This meaning is conveyed upon the subject of the sutras of previous and later topics.
Swami Ramswarup: The previous topic of sutra 4/2/15 is telling about merger and topic of sutra 4/2/16 is telling the meaning of merger i.e., Avibhag. And hence the difference.

Ram Suri: Therefore, the two Brahma Sutra references quoted by you above do not support you at all, but proves the fact that there won't be any subtle body and organs for a soul that has merged in divine for absolute salvation. Your reply is awaited.
Swami Ramswarup: Reply already given and has now also been given but based on four Vedas.

Ram Suri response for 1b): Sir, now please come back to your reference of Chandogyo Upanishad, 6.9.1&2, as quoted by you and asked me to look, Apparently, you did not understand the essence of the above Chandogyo Upanishad reference. Here Uddalaka is explaining the fate of individual souls when they reach divine. Now, please read it very carefully, and do not look for individual words of my explanation in this reference. I am only giving the meaning of this reference. Therefore, I request you to read it carefully and grasp the meaning of it. In this reference, in order to make his son understand, the father gives an analogy. The analogy is related with the collection of essence of flowers by honey-bees from various flowers. The bees finally prepare honey. Now, this honey is produced due to collection of different essences collected from various flowers. This honey, once made, cannot distinguish the essence of one flower from another flower. It means that no particular essence of a flower can be recognized by the mass of honey. But nevertheless, this honey is produced by the collection of all essences from various flowers by the bees. But after the honey is made, there is no individual consciousness for the essences, obtained from different flowers, to think that, "I am obtained from so and so flower" like that. In other words, they have no individual thinking of their essences. Because no individual thinking is present, can we here say that honey is not made of these essences?
Swami Ramswarup: In dreams soul sees his past and present experienced scenes please. And hence no matter of salvation. This is a stage of a yogi who has attained samadhi (salvation) after study of Vedas and practice of Ashtang yoga. So far the period the yogi is realising God and realising merriment, he has also forgotten himself like the nectar which made honey but it does not mean that the soul of a yogi has become God. The soul after realisation would again realize himself (soul) and will remain like Vyas Muni, Guru Vashishth, Vishwamitr etc., and after a stipulated time the soul will leave his body and will remain in space in merriment at the stage of salvation. The soul will never become God.

Ram Suri: Individual essences from different flowers are present in the honey, but once they are merged together and formed into honey, that individuality of each essence from different flower is vanished. In other words, each essence will not think that "I am collected from so and so flower" etc. Instead, they acquire the consciousness of honey. Now, why this analogy is said by father to his son? The reason is that by this type of analogy, the father is implying that that is what would happen to the individual soul upon entry of pure divine. This may also happen sometimes temporarily for humans in case of dream state. But this entry is an unconscious type, and it is temporary till the dream lasts. Upon waking up from sleep, this is gone. It means that the soul of a divine experienced person will enter consciously into divine and merges, while in case of ignorant persons, this is temporary, and upon waking up, he is still the same ignorant person, caught in life after life in the world. This particular Upanishad reference also confirms my stand on this topic that after merging of soul in divine, the individual consciousness is lost and will have a divine consciousness. Now, please do not say here that Vedas never say that honey has also consciousness or Vedas did not say that honey has a soul or soul is not made of honey etc.
Swami Ramswarup: Yes please the materialistic examples give us idea to understand some points but cannot be accepted hundred percent true in case of God who has made them. So Rishi Vyas has given the best example of bee to understand salvation. Absorption of honey is not forever, it will be eaten or destroyed one day.

Ram Suri: This is where one has to contemplate what is the meaning of this reference or for that matter any other reference. Instead, if we look for literal meaning or technical words in the references, then we will never understand anything in spiritualism.
Swami Ramswarup: To know real meaning of Ved, shastra, upnishad, Rigveda mantra 1/164/45 says that..

Ram Suri response for question 2): You have quoted Brahma Sutra IV.4.11 (Bhavam jaiminirvikalpamananat) to prove that soul has a subtle body.
Swami Ramswarup: Subtle means elusive body. At the time of death, sthool sharir is burnt and suksham sharir remains with soul always.

Ram Suri: According to this sutra, it means that Jaimini says that soul has a subtle body and organs. It is true. The same is confirmed in Chandogya Upanishad, 7.26.2 also. But it does not mean that your argument is correct in light of this sutra. We have to see under what conditions the above is applied to the soul. For that purpose, let us see Brahma Sutra IV.4.13 (Tanvabhave sandhyavadupapatteh). It means: Tanvabhave=in the absence of (subtle) body; Sandhyavad= like a dream state which stands midway between waking and deep sleep; Upapatteh= this is reasonable. The meaning of it is that in the absence of subtle body and organs, the soul experiences the merriments like in a dream state. Now let us see what the immediate Brahma Sutra IV.4.14. (Bhave jagradvat) says in this regard. According to this sutra, it is as follows: Bhave=when the (subtle) body exists; Jagradvat=like in waking state. The meaning of this sutra is that in the presence of subtle body and organs, the soul enjoys the merriments like in a waking state. When we take both these sutras together, it will have the meaning that a soul will have a subtle body, and can enjoy merriments with or without subtle body. Please remember that this soul has not yet merged in divine for absolute salvation. Therefore, as per these two sutras, the soul can have a subtle body up to this point. But our aim here is to find out the truth if the soul will have a subtle body etc permanently even after merging in divine for absolute salvation. Your argument that soul will always have a subtle body is not valid here even before this soul has merged in divine. Because, as per IV.4.13, the soul can be without a subtle body and organs, and still can enjoy the merriments. On the basis of support from Chandogya Upanishad, 7.6.2, the Brahma Sutra IV.4.15 says that this soul can also multiply into several forms. All sutras and Upanishad references in this regard are correct. But you missed a very important point here, and thus have a lot of confusion on your part. In fact this point is the very crux of the whole topic. The soul described in Sutras IV.4.11 to the end of the chapter, is nothing but the one, which is not yet merged in divine for absolute salvation. It means that those above references are concerned with the soul that is present at that Brahman (brought to this Brahman by amanava purusha), and to whom Jaimini by mistake assumed to be the supreme Brahman (Vide Brahma Sutra IV.3.12). However, Jaimini's assumption was refuted in sutra IV.3.14 (Na cha karye pratipattyabhisandhih). It means: Na=not; Cha=and; Karye=Brahman (lower one, but not supreme nirgun Brahman); Pratipati=realization of divine; Abhisandhih=desire; (Pratipatti-abhisandhih=the desire to attain or realize the divine). The meaning of this is that the desire to attain divine cannot make the soul to attain the lower Brahman, which is localized at one place (as evidenced by the fact that amanava purusha guides the soul to Brahman. It means that amanava purusha leads the soul from a particular place to the place of Brahman. Since this Brahman is localized at a particular area, he is not absolute divine). Therefore, the sutra IV.4.11 you quoted is concerned with the soul that is still at this Brahman (lower), and will stay there till pralaya, at which time everything merges in divine (IV.3.10) and hence no birth for them (Sutra IV.4.22).
Swami Ramswarup: The jad universe is merged in prakriti and not in divine. Please refer Rigveda mantra 1/24/1-2, which say about rebirth.

Ram Suri: The Chandgyo Upanishad reference (7.26.2) is concerned with Brahma Sutra IV.4.15, and is concerned about the soul present at this Brahman (lower), and before the pralaya. I have called this lower Brahman as a Lord Brahma, and his place as Brahma Lok. But you simply dismissed it without thinking properly.
Swami Ramswarup: Braham lok as per Vedas is human body by which we can attain salvation. Braham is only one and there is no other Braham equivalent to this Braham.(Shevtashwaro upnishad 3/8 refers)

Ram Suri: After seeing confusion on your part, I am not sure whether you know that this soul in the current topic has reached the Brahman (not the supreme divine) by devayani path. I am also adding one more sentence here to make the things more clear for you. When a person experiences divine (jeevan mukta) while living on earth, he won't go through devayani path. The conclusion of all this information is that your argument that soul has a subtle body after obtaining absolute salvation is not true.
Swami Ramswarup: This soul has swa sankalp sharir in his natural stage and uses eye, tongue, ear etc., during salvation (Kathopnishad)

Ram Suri: I have refuted all your arguments and understandings in light of scriptural references and support. Do you have any particular stand now to take? Now, please do not say that this does not suit from Vedas or Vedas do not believe in Upanishads. Let's be honest. I will wait for your reply.
Swami Ramswarup: Brahma sutra 4/4/11---- Bhaav = to occur. Acharya Gemini accepts the suksham sharir during salvation. Chhandogya upnishad 7/26/2 says the soul in salvation becomes one type, three types, five types, nine types, eleven types etc. here the soul cannot be of so many types, so without suksham sharir it is not possible.

Baadri Acharya, father of Vyas Muni says that during salvation, the soul with mann gets the merriment of Moksh. So there remains soul and mann and not indriyan ( Brahma sutra 4/4/10). Then Gemini accepts mann and suksham sharir( 4/4/11). Vyas jee accepts both Bhaav and abhaav (4/4/12) kathopnishad 2/6/10,11,14,15 say during salvation Mann and indriyan remain. Yask Muni's Shatpath Brahmin Granth kand 14 says,: in moksh the soul remains in brahm anand (salvation) .the soul does not have body organs but now the soul remains in his own shape with his natural qualities. So when in salvation the soul wants to listen then ears, to touch skin, to see eyes, to taste tongue, to smell nose, to think mind, to determine mind, to remember chitt and for ahankar the soul get his own ahankar power. The soul has body based on his own desire therefore soul attains salvation, merriment ( moksh sukh by his own desire). Kathopnishad Adh.2 walli 6 shalok 10 says, " YAD PANCHAVATISHTHANTE GYANANI MANSA SAHA BUDDHISHCH NA VICHESHTATE TAMAHUHU PARMAAN GATIM" meaning when pure mann with five perceptions ( gyan indriyan )and mind remains with soul it is called paramgati i.e., salvation. This is called suksham sharir. Because soul in salvation (moksh) can never be God. If soul could be God then soul needs not to desire, does not need ear, tongue, skin etc., in salvation.

Ram Suri response for questions 3&4): Sir! You are again confused here. Your earlier stand is that salvation is meant for souls. You have also said soul cannot do any sadhana alone, without taking the help of a human physical body. Katha 2/6/10 reference you quoted is concerned to a yogi (a physical body with a soul; and doing spiritual sadhana). Now do not look for the terms like 'physical body or soul etc in this reference. The summary of this reference is that when the five senses are controlled and become motionless, then such a state is called 'paramapadam'. Who will keep the senses under control and motionless? A Soul cannot do it.
Swami Ramswarup: Please see the meaning above.

* Topic: Do other lokas and gods exist in space?
Swamiji's previous Ans: 1a) "IN Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE HERE ONLY, According to karmas. Therefore the meaning of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh"

1b) "One side you please accept only one God and on the other side you say about so many Gods"

1c) "If there is only one God as Vedas say then the God is Almighty and needs no assistance of Gods to create,nurses and destroy the universe"

Ram Suri present response to 1a): Sir! Your interpretation is not acceptable. There are many instances in Gita where Lord Krishna indicated the existence of various lokas and gods in space. Please see Gita, and analyze carefully. You will certainly get the answer.
Swami Ramswarup: In Vedas lokas mean planet like sun, earth etc., which are there in space but controlled by only one Almighty God.

Ram Suri present answer for 1b): I have always said that there is only one divine. But there are many gods. Please vide Gita, 11/6, 15, 22 slokas as a proof to show the existence of gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Geeta 11/6, Yajurveda mantra 40/5 says that God is everywhere in our body as well as in out of body. Similarly is the world. So a Yogeshwar like Shri Krishna is empowered to say like this. But the shalokas do not prove that God needs any help from anybody.

Ram Suri present answer for 1c): You have said that you believe in Lord Krishna's Gita. It means that you believe what ever is mentioned in Gita. Now, please see 4/6 to8 slokas to confirm that divine does come in various forms in the world for some specific purposes.
Swami Ramswarup: I have already told that Bhagwat Geeta is a pious and true holy book but the meaning thereof is to be briefed by a present Yogeshwar who knows Vedas. As regards Shalok 4/6 the God is immortal, takes no birth, God is eternal and creates universe. These qualities of God are true as said in this shaloka. Rigveda mantra 10/129/ 7 says that God commands on Prakriti-- the non-alive. So this is true. Yajurveda mantra 31/ 5 says that the world is Viraat and Viraat is the name of God. God is omnipresent, so is Viraat. So the creation of the God is Viraat and this is a quality of God being in form in the shape of Viraat being omnipresent. As regards shaloka 4/7-8, these are the pious personal views of Yogeshwar Shri Krishna. Yajurveda mantra 32/3 clarifies that God is always formless.

Ram Suri's previous reply: "If they (heaven etc) really exist on the earth itself, or if they do not exist at all anywhere else also, then why Lord Krishna would say, " If you die in the battle field you will attain heaven and enjoy there. Once the body dies, then where is the question of enjoying anything on earth if there is no heaven"

Swamiji's previous answer: "Enjoyment is always gained by soul with the help of body as per Vedas one takes birth in house of a king or the richest or in minister's house etc., this is his swarg based on previous pious deeds and he should again continue worship and pious deeds to realise God otherwise his swarg time will be finished like bankrupt and he will have to face the consequences under the Vedic law by God. Second one takes birth in a lowest and poorest house, where thousands of problems,illness,quarrels etc., are faced,this is his narak. Salvation is another stage apart from swarg and narak. And is also enjoyed by the soul through suksham sharir"

Ram Suri present answer: Your understanding about existence of swarga is totally incorrect. Please see Gita 6/41, wherein Lord Krishna says that an unsuccessful yogi after enjoying at other lokas will born in a good family, or in a rich family. Now as per your own understanding, if this enjoyment of swarg takes place only on Earth, (to indicate as a heaven) that means that the unsuccessful yogi has already born and enjoying on the Earth. Right? If it is correct, then why Lord Krishna would say again that, "after enjoying in other lokas, he will born in good or rich families"? As per your understanding, he (the unsuccessful yogi) is already born and enjoying on the earth. Why should the word 'abhijayate' is used here in this sloka? Your understanding is not matching with the teachings of Lord Krishna in Gita, and therefore, your claim that swarg is present only on Earth is totally wrong sir. Also your opinion that soul enjoys through subtle body is not 100% correct. It is only partially correct. Soul can also enjoy in the absence of subtle body. After merging in divine the soul will not have any subtle body as per scriptures, shown in my above answers. Please vide them.
Swami Ramswarup: Loka means the body, which is attained by soul, Yog bhrashta also attains again human body in a repeated family where he continues his spiritual path and this wonderful birth is due to the previous births' pious deeds. Mainly the loka means the body (birth) here.

Swamiji's previous response: "IN Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE HERE ONLY, According to karmas. Therefore the meaning of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh"
Ram Suri present response: Sir! I have noticed many contradicting statements in your answers. Contradictions arise due to lack of proper understanding of the scriptures. In your above answer too, you are making two contradicting statements. One side you are saying that swarg is present on the earth itself, thus ruling out the possibility of a separate existence for swarg in space. On the other hand, you are saying that the meaning of swarg, as per Vedas is moksh. Let us see how the term swarg is applied to Gita 2/37 sloka in terms of salvation as per your understanding of Vedas. Here, Lord Krishna says to Arjun that, "if you die in the battle field, then you will go to heaven and enjoy there". "On the other hand, if you win the battle, then you will enjoy the kingdom". Here, as per your understanding, swarg=salvation. It means that if Arjun dies in the battle field, he would go to swarg, that is, he will get salvation. But I do not agree with this, because, at that point of time (in the war), Arjun is not qualified to get salvation, even though he is a good person, and a good friend of Lord Krishna. How do we know it? Before going to the answer, let us understand few things first. Controlling of mind and senses is highly required for anyone for attaining salvation. Now, please see 6/34 Gita sloka, where Arjun is saying that mind is very strong and turbulent, and difficult than controlling of air. From this it is clear that Arjun doesn't have complete control over his mind at the time of war also. Since without controlling mind etc, it is not possible to attain salvation, it means that Arjun is not qualified to get salvation at the time of war. But because Lord Krishna says, "If you die in the war, you will go to swarg to enjoy", under this context, swarg cannot be equal to salvation. Therefore, according to your understanding the term swarg is not equal to salvation (moksh). Then what is the meaning of swarg? You have an opinion that swarg is only present on earth. But this is also wrong. Because, as per Gita 9/20, Indra, the king of gods is present, and thus swarg is also present as per the same rule. Therefore, swarg is a place for enjoyment in space. It is not good to aim heaven if some one is spiritually inclined.

Ram Suri's previous reply: "In Gita, many instances are quoted to confirm the existence of different gods and lokas. For example, 8/16 clearly indicates the existence of various lokas, the highest lok being the Brahma lok in space"
Swamiji's previous answer: "Geeta shalok 8/16 is based on the knowledge of yajurveda mantra 31/3, wherein it is mentioned that from one part (padah) of the God the universe is created having three lokas which are destroyed but above all three padah purushah (God) amritam divi i.e., immortal and above three lokas"
Ram Suri present reply: Good, and I accept. But you did not answer whether you accept the existence of Brahma Lok as per Gita 8/16 or not. Therefore, your above answer is incomplete. Please clarify if you accept the existence of Brahma Lok as per 8/16.

Swamiji's previous answer: "Braham lok means where Braham lives according to Yajurveda mnatra 40/1. It is said,"ISHAWASYAM IDAM SARVAM YAT KINCH JAGATTYAAM JAGAT" here two jagats arethere.1. JAR JAGAT (THREE LOKAS) 2. Chetan jagat (souls) the God lives in these jagats,so these are Braham loka"
Swami Ramswarup: As I already told the swarg- narak is only on the earth. To get birth in human life, based on previous pious deeds and to enjoy with every goods is swarg and to get birth in a poor family and to bear miseries etc., is a narak but in salvation to get the merriment is another swarg. So it is not contradictory. Geeta shalok 2/37 is also based on Saamveda mantra 1409 that a warrior if dies in war attains salvation (moksh). So Geeta is only understood after studying Vedas, as also said by Shri Krishna that He is Saamveda in four Vedas. (Geeta shalok 10/22) So Arjuna though was not a yogi at the time of war and was also not able to attain salvation but Shri Krishna, a philosopher of four Vedas and Yogeshwar is telling, based on Saamveda mantra 1409 that a warrior and not a Yogi here is competent to get salvation. This shalok (10/22) is also based on Atharvaveda mantra 10/7/20, "SAMANI YASYA LOMANI TAM SKAMBHAM BRUHI" i.e., whose Saamveda mantras are like body pores, He is God and God has no body pores. But the mantras meaning is that the power who has preached Upasana kand in Saamveda, He is God. So to know about Yogeshwar Krishna, one will have to worship God according to Saamveda. In Vedas, Indra means God according to situation and Indra means a man who controls his indriyan (senses, perceptions and mind). That is why Rigveda says," INDRAHA SOM PEETYE" i.e., a Yogi who controls his indriyan, he drinks SOM and SOM means the experience of merriment of realising God. So Geeta shalok 9/20,21 etc., say the philosophy of four Vedas that the man who follows the path of Rigveda (knowledge), Yajurveda (karmas-deeds), and Saamveda( Upasana-worship-Yoga etc.,) he realises God in salvation i.e., drinks SOM. As also said in Rigveda mantra 10/119/1-13 about drinking of SOM. And comes back, according to Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2. I would request you to please go through the Vedas because Vedas are not based on Geeta but Geeta is based on Vedas. Even all shastras etc., are based on four Vedas.

Ram Suri present reply: So, as per your above understanding, those souls attained this lok (Braham - from your above answer) will also come back to samsar to take birth after birth. Because, Lord Krishna in 8/16 says that attainment up to the so called, 'Brahma Lok' you have described above is also subjected to return to the samsar to take birth after birth. That means, as per your understanding, attaining of this divine (that is, god, as you call him) is also subject to return to samsar for birth. Please think over it again.
Ram Suri's previous answer: "If it is so, then why would Lord Krishna say that who so ever understands 1000 yugas as a day and another 1000 yugas as a night for Lord Brahma would understand the real meaning of day and night (8/17)"
Swami Ramswarup: Shashtra says Fundamental law of God can never be changed. Rigveda mantra 10/190/3 says, " SURYA CHANDRMASAU DHATA YATHAPURVAMKALPYAT" Means the sun, moon, earth etc., of this universe are same as of the previous destructed universe, so is about the rules and regulations when four Vedas have not told about any swarg- narak in space, so the fundamental law can not be changed.

I have already clarified about Braham lok, that the body of human being is Braham lok where soul realises God. God means the only God who has unlimited qualities with creation, nursing, destruction and again creation etc., and no one else has these qualities. Brahma----God never comes back to Sansaar, as you said, but God creates sansaar and becomes omnipresent. As regards 1000 yugas as a day etc., as per Geeta shalok 8/17 it is related to creation and destruction i.e., one Brahma day = the period of one creation and Brahma ratri is a period of destruction.
17,280,00 years = one satyug,
12,960,00 years = Treta,
8,640,00 years = dwapur and
4,320,00 years of Kalyug.

When these four yugas (periods) are passed once in 1000 time, then it is called one Braham Din. And similarly the Braham ratri.

Swamiji's previous answer: "It is in accordance with Rigveda mandal 10, Manu smriti 1/64 to 75, Please relating to creation and counting of duration of the earth only"
Ram Suri present answer: Your understanding is wrong sir again. Please see Gita 8/17&19 slokas. The time periods described above do not refer to earth. Please be realistic while claiming anything. In 8/16, Lord Krishna refers Lord Brahma, in 17th sloka, in continuation from 16th sloka, Lord Krishna compares the time period with respective to this Lord Brahma. Please see 18th sloka, where Lord Krishna talks about creation and destruction of universe during day and night time of Lord Brahma. In all these slokas, reference of Lord Brahma is continuously used. I would like to give you a clue, who this Lord Brahma is. He is the one to whom the soul is taken to by amanava purusha. He is the same chatur muk Brahma, who sits in a Lotus flower also. But I know that you won't believe in the existence of Lord chatur muk Brahma. Therefore, I request you to see Gita 11/15 sloka, where Arjun says having seen many gods, Rishis, Lord Brahma in Lotus flower etc in the Universal form of Lord Krishna (divine). Can you please think your above answer in light of this information, and let me know your opinion on this. In addition to the above information and references, I am quoting the following references for your convenience to prove the existence of other lokas and gods.
Swami Ramswarup: As regards Uttaryan, Dakshinayan and description of yugas etc., please refer chapter 1 and shaloka 64 to 75 also of Manu Smriti, which clarify the day of Braham etc. So this is regarding calculation of time of the yugas and does not say about any separate loka or Brahma. So the reference of Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129 is about creation and Manu Smriti 1/64-75 is regarding day of Brahma i.e., duration of the earth clarified above and it was correct please but I do not know why you consider it incorrect. So I would again request you to please study Rigveda mandal 10 about creation by God from Prakriti and mention of souls too. And Manu Smriti shalok 1/64-75 please regarding Brahma ka Din. Actually the words used by Vyas Muni in Bhagwat Geeta are all from four Vedas and until we study the Vedas, the meaning cannot be understood properly.

Ram Suri: 3/11: Lord Krishna says, " If you (people) please the gods (remember here, not divine - but gods) by doing so and so activities, the gods in turn will please you" From this it is clear that gods do really exist.
Swami Ramswarup: I already clarified from Shatpath Brahmin Granth of Yask Muni that the meaning of Dev that its meaning is he who ahs studied four Vedas and has done practice of Ashtang yoga. So the meaning of Dev-Deva-Devan etc., (according to Sanskrit Vyakarann --- SUPTINGANTAM PADAM) mentioned in shalok ; in English may be Gods, but sense cannot be changed, sense will remain. He (Vidwan Acharya) who knows Vedas and not any other Dev, who lives in swarg etc., and from "Yaj" dhatu "DEVPUJA,, SANGTIKARANN,DAAN" is made which means we must obey the Dev, and by doing Yajna and service we must please the Deva (Acharya) and this is the path of our well-being.

Ram Suri: 4/1: Lord Krishna says, "I instructed this yoga to sun god, who in turn instructed to .." From this it is clear that there is a god of sun. One may say here that the name sun does not refer to 'Surya god' whom we think, but it may refer to a king or a great person in the history. This notion is wrong, because, in 4/4, from Arjun' s question, it is clear that the term 'sun' does not refer to a king or any great person.
4/25: Lord Krishna says, "some yogis worship gods .." It is clear from this statement that gods also exist.
Swami Ramswarup: In Vedas, there are five kinds of Yagya (Yajna) ---
Brahma Yagya = to listen preach of Vedas,
Dev Yagya = to worship God by Agnihotra,
Baliveshwa Dev Yagya = to offer part of food that is prepared daily in kitchen, to animals, birds etc.,
Atithi Yagya = to serve Him, who is wise knowing Vedas, and
Pitar Yagya = services to a Yogi/Rishi who knows traditional knowledge about creation from Vedas.

So in this shlok 4/25, Dev Yagya is being advised . Vedas are proof, so the meaning is true. In Yajurveda 31/16 it is too said, "DEVAHA YAJYEN YAJYAM AA YAJANT" means that Devaha (philosopher of Vedas) worship God by performing Yajna. Yaskacharya says in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth that, "YAJAU VAI SHRESHTHATAMAM KARMAHA: i.e., Yagya is the best worship and the best pious deed in the universe.

Ram Suri: 4/31: Lord Krishna says, "without sacrifice one cannot live happily in this lok or any other lok .." From this it is clear that different lokas really exist.
Swami Ramswarup: This Geeta shlok 4/31 is based on Atharvaveda mantra 8/2/1 wherein it is mentioned that we must eat "IMAAM AMRITASYA SHNUSHTIM" = Yagya (Yajna) shesham Amritam i.e., the last left over part of food of a performed Yagya etc., to gain long, happy life without violence and this shlok also has the same meaning please and does not tell about any lokas. So here the loka means the present human body and the other lokas mean the bodies, which will be awarded by God according to our karmas in the next birth.

Ram Suri: 6/40: Lord Krishna says, "people doing pious activities will never be destroyed either in this world or other world .,." This also shows the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Here also the meaning of lokas are same. "Eha" word is based on Ved mantras like Yajurveda mantra 40/2, so Eha means "here in this lok" (The earth) and "Amutr" means in next lok i.e., next birth on the earth. So Vedas clearly say that he, who has done pious deeds according to Vedas will not meet with sorrows, difficulties, poverty or the bodies of the animals etc.

Ram Suri: 6/41: Lord Krishna says, "an unsuccessful yogi will reach the pious entities lokas for enjoyment ." This also confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Same as above. I.e., loka means the body which is received in the next birth and earth also is a loka, because we can not ignore the basic principle of Vedas that in the space there are so many planets which are also under the command and control of one Almighty God. But the swarg lokas where God's like Indra etc., live, this is not told by Vedas, please study Vedas.

Ram Suri: 7/20: Lord Krishna says, ". people with materialistic desires will worship gods ." This shows the existence of different gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Here the meaning of different Dev is other than God and in Yajurveda mantra 40/9 it is said that those who do not worship God but worship other than God, they go to darkness, i.e., they take next birth in animal/bird's bodies etc. So the worship other than God is sin, is being taught by Shri Krishna here. Please see that Yaskacharya has told the meaning of Dev as I already mentioned above. But in Vedas, one word has so many meanings according to situation. For example, Indra means Yogi and Indra means God also etc. for example, in Sanskrit, "payaha" means milk and water too. So exact meaning of payaha will be according to situation. So is the case of Dev etc.

Ram Suri: 7/22: Lord Krishna says, "I fulfill their desires through these gods."
Swami Ramswarup: The meaning must have the fundamental law of Vedas. Yajurveda chapter 40, mantras 9 to 12 state that he who worship other than one Almighty God or materialistic world then they are merged with illusion and get sorrows etc. So the meaning of this shlok comes that he who worships other than God he gets the result as per Vedas, i.e., bad result. When Shri Krishna says that those who go to Shri Krishna, they only get peace, then how Shri Krishna will say that those who go to other than Krishna they will also be benefited by other Dev. So no other Gods please, God being Almighty and independent.

Ram Suri: 7/23: Lord Krishna says, "People of less intelligence worship gods for materialistic gains .." This clearly shows the existence of different gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Here Shri Krishna says the result of worship other than God, those people get death etc. at the time of Geeta, the karma kand to worship different types of Devtas had been started and Shri Krishna warns not to worship those Devaha.

Ram Suri: 8/16 - 19: Lord Krishna says, "attainment up to Brahma Lok ; terms like Brahma are found.." This confirms the existence of Lord Brahma ji.
Swami Ramswarup: Brahm lok means human body where by real sadhna God is realised. If not then next body is given which is called next loka or perlok and loka means the bodies of animals, birds etc., and this lok also throws light that all those lokas are of death and birth. Some people say that there is no other Braham lok then too the existence of other lokas must not be there.

Ram Suri: 9/20: Lord Krishna says, ".. attains heaven of Indra for enjoyments ." This confirms the existence of Indra, the king of gods, in the heaven.
9/21: Lord Krishna says, "people who are after the sensual pleasure will go to heavens and then finally returns to this mundane world .." This confirms the existence of heaven and the fate of the souls after.
9/23 - 24: Lord Krishna says, "people who worships other gods with faith actually worship me only ., but the worship is not recognized ." This also confirms the existence of gods.
9/25: Lord Krishna says, "people who worships gods will attain gods, those who worships to ancestors will attain them, those who worships spirits will attain them . " This confirms the existence of gods, ancestors, spirits separately.
Swami Ramswarup: Based on four Vedas I have already mentioned thirty non-alive devas and five alive devas. And the same is also mentioned in Yagvalkya and Gargi discussion accordingly the meaning comes that those who are worshipping, "Prititva" i.e., mother, father; who are worshipping bhoot i.e., five matters, they are awarded accordingly and those who are worshipping God they only realise God. So the fundamental of this shlok is whatever type of worship is done, accordingly the award is given by Almighty God.

Ram Suri: 10/2 - 3: Lord Krishna says, "even gods ... do not know .., ; I am the lord of all worlds" This is very conclusive evidence to show that there are different lokas in the space.
Swami Ramswarup: In Vedas there are so many mantras like Rigveda mantra 5/51/13, " VISHVEDEVA NO ADYA SWASTYE" deva = Vidwan Acharya who knows Vedas. Vishve = all, therefore Vishvedeva = may all Acharya shower their blessings for our happy life. Based on the Ved mantra Shri Krishna here says that the dev (Acharyas who has not realised yet) with their disciples even do not know me about ganna, Rigveda mantra 5/51/12 says, BRISPATIM SARVGANNAM" Brispati = brihad+ pati, in Vedas here brihad means having the biggest knowledge of four Vedas and pati means master, ganna means jannganana i.e., counting of disciples/ followers. In this shlok Suraha = dev and gannah = followers. So the meaning is accordingly please. That is why I am telling again and again to please study Vedas since Geeta is a preach from Shri Krishna based on four Vedas.

Ram Suri: 10/12 - 15: Arjun uses the names, "great sages like Narad, gods, demons etc.," This confirms the existence of sage Narad - the son of Lord Brahma (the chatur muk Brahma), gods, and demons; and says, "you are the god of gods" to Lord Krishna.
Swami Ramswarup: In Valmiki Ramayan Bal kand Pratham sarg shlok 13, Valmiki says to Shri Ram that Prajapati Samaha i.e., equivalent to God. In Rigveda mantra 1/67/3 the qualities of God have been described and the same description is seen in Yajurveda mantra 7/4-8 ,so is the case of Shri Krishna Mahraj.

Ram Suri: 10/22 - 39: Lord Krishna says, "I am Indra among gods; among of demons, I am lord of wealth; I am Bruhaspathi (the priest of Indra), I am Kumar Swamy; I am Narad; among Gandhrvas, I am Chitradha; among the elephants, I am Airavata; among weapons, I am thunderbolt; among cows, I am Kamadenuv (Surabhi); I am Vasuki; I am god f love; I am Ananta; I am Varuna; I am Aryama; I am Yama; I am sri Krishna; I am Arjun, I am Sukracharya; All these highlight the existence of the following: Indra - the king of gods, having thunderbolt as his weapon, has a Airavata, and has Bruhaspathi as his chief priest. Similarly, the existence of Narad, Kumarswamy, Kamadenuv, Gandharvas, Vasuki, Ananta, Varun, yama, ancestral beings, Sukracharya is proven beyond any doubt.
Swami Ramswarup: Here the highest stage Vibhuti-dignity is being mentioned. There are four Vedas but Saamveda is the highest etc. As regards Indra I have already told above.

Ram Suri: 11/6: Lord Krishna says, " see Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Aswani gods, Marut etc., This means that these personalities are existing in the space.
Swami Ramswarup: These all words are mentioned in Vedas i.e.,
Aditya =1.sun 2. Unbreakable,

Vasus-- 8 vasus like earth, air, space etc., which give place to live (vasna) that is why these are called vasu.

Rudra--- rulanewala i.e., he, who suppress us to weep, these are rudras.

Aswinau = prann and apan, so these all are existing on earth and earth is in space.

Ram Suri: 11/15: Arjun says, " all gods, whole universe, Lord Brahma sitting in Lotus flower (the chtur muk Brahma) all sages, all divine serpents" It confirms the existence of gods, divine serpents, chtur muk Brahma.
11/20: Arjun says, ". all three lokas trembled with fear" This confirms the existence of various lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 11/22: Arjun describes various gods, like, Rudras, Adityas, Vasus, viswa devas, Aswanis, Marutas, fore fathers, Gandhrvas, Yakhas, Siddhas, Asuras. It means that they exist really.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained above please.

Ram Suri: 11/26 - 27: Arjun says, "Bhisma, Drona, Karna etc. are also seen in divine form of Lord Krishna. It should be noted here that Bhisma, Drona etc are living actually at that time of Gita discourse in the battlefield, and hence they are shown in the divine form. Similarly, when different gods etc are shown in the divine form, it means that they also really exist.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 11/37 & 39: Arjun says, "you are the god of gods, even Lord Brahma also does not know your beginning, your are air, yama, fire, varun, moon, Brahma. This confirms the existence of gods and Lord Brahma.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained above please.

Ram Suri: 11/43: Arjun says, "In all three worlds no one equal to you, hence no one is greater than you" This confirms the existence of different worlds.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained above please.

Ram Suri: 11/52: Lord Krishna says, "even gods want this opportunity to see the divine form" This confirms the existence of gods.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 14/14 & 18: Lord Krishna says, "Persons who die during the development of satva gun will attain the lokas of great sages. This confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained as above please.

Ram Suri: 17/4: Lord Krishna says, "people with satwa gun worships gods, with rajo gun worships Yakhawas and demons, while people with tamo gun worship spirits" From this it is clear that gods, yakhaws, demons and spirits exist.
Swami Ramswarup: Similar as above.

Ram Suri: 17/28: Lord Krishna says, " . if done without faith on divine, it is a waste in this life and other loka" This confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ramswarup: Explained as above please.

Ram Suri: 18/40: Lord Krishna says, "no body either on the earth, or heaven (gods) are free from trigunas" This confirms the existence of gods.
Swami Ramswarup: So the meaning of shlokas are only acceptable based on Vedas, please. So please study Vedas.

Ram Suri: See the above all references from Gita. It is quite enough to prove that existence of gods, different lokas, which you have dismissed without thinking much. Can you or me or someone else say that Lord Krishna is fooling Arjun by saying the existence of other lokas or gods if they do not really exist? No one can imagine that. This is where the intense faith on divine is highly essential. Because no such things called 'lokas' are seen to our naked eyes in the space, it does not mean that the universe is just empty. Other lokas are present in different space-time dimensions. We all live in four-dimensional world. The universe is not going to end up at just with four dimensions. Therefore, from the above references from Gita, it is crystal clear that different types of gods and lokas exist. Only thing it requires is that one has to open up the antennas to perceive the truths. I will wait for your reply.
Swami Ramswarup: The planets exist as I have already told but the lokas and Deva do not exist, as per Vedas please. I have several times told that Shri Krishna has not preached Geeta. If he could then he had to study Geeta first and then preach. In fact, Shri Krishna studied four Vedas and did ashtang Yoga practice with sakha Sudama, in the ashram of Rishi Sandeepan. Yaskacharya in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth says--- " MANTRADRISHTA ITI RISHIHI " i.e., he who looks ved mantras in his heart by virtue of studying Vedas and hard Ashtang yoga practice, he is a Rishi. Shri Krishna also did so. So at the time of war, the preach delivered by Shri Krishna is based on the knowledge of four Vedas, learnt by Shri Krishna from his Guru. Bhagwat Geeta is an extract of Bhisham Parva and has been named Bhagwat Geeta and fully accepted heartily. So to know the real meaning of Geeta, we have to study four Vedas and in the Vedas, there is no mention of any lok where Devta rules.

* Topic: Does the soul merge in divine for absolute salvation? Or remain separate from divine forever and enjoy merriments?

Swamiji's reply: Swamiji's previous reply in CAPITAL LETTERS):
1. "YES PLEASE SOUL IS SEPARATE AND ALMIGHTY GOD IS SEPARATE"
2. "FOUR Vedas NEVER SAYS ABOUT ANY TEMPORARILY DISTICTION AND IT IS NOT POSIBLE TOO", "this difference is eternal and can not be changed" 4a. "IN THIS SUTRA (IV.1.19), SAMPADYE MEANS GETS I.E., AFTER BURNING ALL THE KARMAS THE SOUL REALISES GOD AND GETS MOKSH"
4b. "AFTER BURNING ALL THE KARMAS THE SOUL REALISES GOD AND GETS MOKSH"
5. "Salt is dissolved in water but ever will remain salt"


Ram Suri response for 1, 2, 3 and 4a questions: Sir! As per your understanding, soul and divine are different permanently. Can you please tell me who has given this difference between the souls and divine to exist? You may say that it is mentioned in Vedas. What is the guarantee that you have understood the Vedas accurately? Vedas are revealed in enlightened sages very, very long back. It means that Vedas are from divine. When divine does not have either "SANKALP OR VIKALP", then how could divine make these differences to exist when both divine and souls are unborn and have no death? There should be a time point where the difference between divine and the souls should start. When there is no time point for their birth or death, then how do their differences would exist at all? Let us see what Brahma Sutras say in this regard. [IV.1.19 - Bhogenatvitare kshapayitva sampadyate. That is: Bhogena=by enjoyment (of karma); Tu=but; Itare=of the other two works (merits and demerits or puny and sin); Kshapayitva=having exhausted;
Swami Ramswarup: Why one should be afraid of Vedas? The base of whole Geeta is Vedas, then why don't you study the Vedas, as I have. Why are you challenging me and this is not a way to discuss the truth. I have told you that he who knows Vedas is a present Dev and there are so many Dev in India. Please go and study Vedas first. Do you think that eternal knowledge of Vedas is finished now that is why you have given your comments on Vedas that Vedas are revealed in enlightened sages very long back. The Vedas are world's culture, originated in the heart of Rishis, direct from God about one arab, 96 crore, 8 lakhs and 53 thousands years back. It is clear that during that time no books, or sects of present time came into existence. Therefore Vedas are applicable for all human beings, today also. Vedas are not sects. For a long time we have been slaves of Mugals and Britishers, which has effected our Vedas knowledge badly. I remember that when Aurangjeb started burning of our Vedas and hand written holy books by the ancient Rishis, then for more than six months, our culture of Vedas etc., kept in Nalanda and Takshila Universities had been burning continuously , then our Brahmin started learning Vedas by heart. That is why Vedi, Divedi, Tripathi, saved the Vedas and called Vedi (learnt one ved by heart) and so on Divedi and Trivedi. The culture was continued to be burnt during that period. Most respected His Holiness a Acharya named Baannbhatt was going and he heard a weeping voice of a lady. He knocked the door and entered the house and asked the reason of weeping. The lady replied to Baannbhatt that Vedas have been burnt, so now who will give the preach of Vedas to human beings. Acharya Baannbhatt replied, O, Mother do not weep, I am still alive and know whole Vedas by heart. So Vedas can't be finished/ destroyed by any bad element. It has been a bad tendency of some Gurus against the Vedas. They mostly say Vedas are karma kand, Vedas are difficult and have turned the people to listen to them, (present Saint who are against the Vedas) and leave the Vedas and Yajna. So now it has been our duties to study and spread the knowledge of Vedas to human beings. Secondly if the Bhagwat Geeta could have been written by present saints then it was not needed to tally Bhagwat Geeta to Vedas. But it is written by Muni Vyas and his 100% views in Bhagwat Geeta are from Vedas. So every word of the Bhagwat Geeta has the meaning and secret of Vedas. But to our bad luck the comments on Geeta are being written mostly by those who are always away from the knowledge of Vedas, giving their own views and even against the Vedas, Geeta contains Vedic knowledge please. Is it not a wonder that even uneducated and educated from college etc., are giving comments on Geeta? So bundle of personnel's are there, who have written comments on Geeta but Where are those who dare to study Vedas and give comments on Vedas? Those respected personnel are very few and your comments therefore to me, " not to know the real meaning of Vedas" usually tally with the present saints, who are against Vedas. So please first study Vedas which will give you a long happy life.

The moksh is attained by a alive yogi. But he waits till he leaves body. Moksh is not attained after death, also says Kapil Muni in his shastra sutra 3/78 otherwise who will give the experience of moksh to the people. That is why Rigveda mantra 10/154/1 advises that one should study Vedas from a Rishi to achieve good qualities and moksh. Rigveda 10/142/6 says that God which is worshipped by Ved mantras, then the sins of past life etc., are burnt forever. That is why Rigveda mantra 1/67/3 says that Yogi/ Rishi is equivalent to God. But now a days mostly all saints, not having Vedas' knowledge are telling themselves Braham Rishis, or God. From Vedas knowledge/Yoga etc., one is considered equivalent to God but not God.

To know this fact you will have to go to a present Dev. Please go and study first. Vedas are eternal and traditional and therefore are known a t present also. Traditionally. Vedas tell about sankalp or vikalp of God said by you in your question and IKSHANN to create universe. How can any body tell you on computer? This is not traditional way. Have you studied your advaitwad on computer or on telephone? So is the case of Vedas please. I hope you will put up questions after studying the Vedas please.

Ram Suri: Sampadyate=becomes united (with divine)]. The meaning of this sutra is that after having completed the facing of karmas of both types (puny and sin), the soul becomes one with divine. Close analysis would reveal here the follow: Here, the terms, 'Bhogena' means enjoy (not merriment type of enjoys - I hope you understand this difference) that is to face the karmas. Who will face the karmas? A soul alone cannot face the karmas. Similarly, a dead body cannot face the consequences of the karmas. When the soul resides, then the physical body faces the karmas. Right? All living ordinary persons are performing the karmas, and enjoying their consequences. But this sutra uses the term 'sampadyate', meaning 'becoming'. All ordinary persons (doing no sadhana) or their souls cannot be applied with this term (as they will take birth). Therefore, this term, "sampadyate', in this sutra should be understood as concerned about the fate of a jeevan mukta's soul after death essentially. Please understand it very carefully. As per this sutra, the soul in the physical body of a jeevan mukta after divine experience will also wait till the karma (prarabdha karma) is faced. Once, prarabdha karma becomes zero, then the physical body dies, and as per the rule of this sutra, the soul will become united in divine for absolute salvation. In this regard, Chandogya Upanishad,7.14.2) says that, there is some delay for him (jeevan mukta) till he is released from the physical body". Once the physical body of this jeevan mukta dies, after karma= zero, then as per Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 4.4.6, this soul will merge in divine. Even in Mundaka Upanishad 3.28, also confirms the same by giving an example of merging of rivers in sea. Merging of soul in divine will make to loose the individual consciousness and acquiring divine consciousness, like a river

Adwaitvad



This section is compiled from articles written by Swami Ramswarup, and the excerpts of user questions and answers. Portions of it are published in Questions - Answers on Vedanta and Enternal Vedas' Philosophy book. It has been divided into:

  • Foreward
  • Vedas - A proof in token to recognize truth
  • Vedic Traitvad
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated March 03, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated March 24, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated March 29, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated April 04, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated April 09, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated April 14, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated June 13, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated June 24, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Ram Suri dated July 03, 2004
  • Replies to questions by Sanjeev Vadlaputi dated October 04, 2004


  • Other questions & answers:
    Sanatana Dharma: Can you please tell me which is true: advaita philosophy or vishitadvaita philosophy? and why?
    Swami Ramswarup: Advaita means there is no another. So when we study new Vedanta philosophy then we makes its meaning that there is only one God and nothing other. Whereas Vedas say then world like sun, moon, bodies, air etc., made by prakriti, souls and Almighty God these three matters are there, but new Vedanta says that sun, moon, prakriti etc., is being seen by misunderstanding and soul is itself God quoting the example that in a rope a snake is realised but actually that is a rope and by misunderstanding the rope is realised a snake. So this is their advaitwad that everything is God and there is nothing except God i.e, God, souls and the world is one. Whereas Vedas say about tretwad that God, soul and prakriti are reality. In Vishit Advaita it is said that God, souls and world are always different from each other. Soul(alive) and world (non alive) both are smallest bodies of God in Hindi Sukshm. This is also not told by Vedas.
    Sugani: Doubts on vedanta
    Swami Ramswarup: Vedanta says that there is only one God and nothing else i.e., sun, moon, mother, father and every worldly article is God. Whereas Vedas says there are three truth i.e., God, Soul and prakriti. Vedanta says that soul and prakriti are also God. So one has to discuss and must get eternal proof on the matter.
    Truth Seeker: Pranam guruji, I saw in the Q & A section, you have continually said that in the vedas God is Only One and he is formless. But in Srimad Mahabhagavatam it is said that Brahmam, which is the aspect of God not bound by space and time is formless. The other two aspects of God - paramatma signifying localized form of God inliving beings and finally Bhagawan or Ishwara which refers to GOD in hisspiritual realm (Vaikuntha). These 2 aspects signifies that he has a form which is said as Sat-chit-ananda vigraha in scriptures. Are you saying thatBhagavatam is not authentic? I agree with what vedas say "Ekam Brahmamdvitiya nasti". But does that mean that he hasnt got a personal form? If youfind anything wrong with my question, pls forgive me. Please explain? Thank you
    Swami Ramswarup: There is no any aspect of God as God is Almighty and needs no any assistance. So Braham is only one who creates, nurses and destroys the universe. Braham means Supreme so there is only one Supreme power which is called almighty God. Living being and Bhagwan can be considered almighty God. Similarly water, pani, jal or aab or aapah etc., are the name of water and there is no any other water. However these names are mentioned in Bhagwat puran and not in Vedas and six shashtras. If God will reside only in Vaikuntha then HIS quality of omnipresent will be no more and there is no mention of Vaikuntha in the Vedas too. Sat means was, is and will remain in future always, chit means alive (chetan) and anand means God has not to bear any kind of result of deed and is therefore always an unlimited ocean of merriment i.e., anandswarup.

    So this quality is of only one Almighty God who has no form. Actually there is no any reason of becoming form. If you see that HE will kill Ravan so question arises that God has not come in form to create universe or to destroy the same being Almighty and empowered to do anything without any assistance then what is the necessity of having form. The learned Rishi
    Muni accepted four Vedas as proof (swatah praman) and shashtras as proof (partah praman) and no other. EKO BRAHAM DWITYA NASTI means there is only one God and equivalent to this one God there is no any other God. Your questions are interested and good one. You are most welcome again. I have written about this on web site too. I would request you to please study full web
    site and please send me e-mail again.
    Satish Sharma: Swamiji, Your answer to my question on 17/01/2003 cleared many of my doubts but some remained. I also received the books on "Veda" from you. I am very obliged for the affection shown towards me. Humbly , I admit that I have yet to fully go through these books. However, my curiosity again compel me to get more knowledge / clarification on my earlier question from you Swamiji. Swamiji , You said that Atma is not a part of Parmatma because God cannot be fragmented. Then what is "Parmatm Tatv" that Holy Books say that it is within you and you are to seek it? And whether the "Jeev Tatva" in our body and "Atma" are two different things in us or they are one and the same thing? However, my main question is again about the rebirth and consequences of the deeds of this life in our next life. Swamiji , in this life the "Jeev" in me is feeling the
    "SUKH/DUKH" on the basis of my "Karma" in my previous life. These SUKH/DUKH are felt by me (the "Jeev") but as soon as I die, the memory of these SUKH/DUKH will vanish and my next life will again start like a clean slate. Now when memory plays such a large role in one's life and in every new life a person starts his life and live it with a fresh memory then why not eat
    drink and be merry in this life (by good means or by bad means)? and my question remains the same old one that although in next life Mr. B's life will be filled with SUKH /DUKHS as per the good/bad "Karma" of Mr. A(myself) in this life and the "Jeev" in both of us is the same. But since memory of A will never pass on to B, so for all purposes the pleasures enjoyed by Mr. A will live with him only and die with him. So why to worry about Mr. B of next life whom I will never be able to connect to and who will never come to know about me (Mr.A). Please forgive my continuous harping upon the same question but your guidance clear many of my doubts so I approach you.
    Swami Ramswarup: Soul and God are different from each other. Third matter is prakriti which one is also different. Now a days most of the saints have started preaching without giving any vedic proof. Vedas even yoga shashtra sutra 1/7 say to give proof on each WORD. Sutra is PRATAKSHANUMAANAGAMAH PRAMANANAI. Means there are prataksh,anumaan and agam pramaan (proof), agam has two --- present Rishi who is ashtang yogi and knows all Vedas. His proof or ved mantra's proof are required which mostly the present saints do not give. Simply some say that rope is seen as a snake by misunderstanding. Another side they say EKO BRAHAM DWITYA NA ASTI. They clarify it that sun, moon, mother, father, body and every matter of the universe has no existence but God i.e., these articles are God. If all articles are God as per their self rule then the man who is seeing the rope as a snake by misunderstanding that man is also God, then why the God (the man) has got misunderstanding. Then they say for some time maya captures the God which is fundamentally wrong.

    Now I give you proof here about soul, God and prakriti. Rigved mantra 1/164/20 says DWA SUPRNA SAKHAYA SAYUJA SAMANM VRIKSHM PARISHASHVA JATE TAYORANYAH PIPPLAM SWADU ATTI ANASHNAN ANAYAH ABHI CHAKSHITI means there is one tree on which two birds
    are living. One bird eats the fruit of the tree but another does not eat and only looking towards the first bird who is eating the ripened fruit. The secret of this mantra is that tree and our body etc., are made from non alive prakriti matter (see Rigved mandal ten sukta 129 onwards too) which are always destroyed. So in our body the two birds are soul and God seprately. The soul (jivatma or we) does deeds and face result thereof. To face the result means to eat the ripened fruit . But another alive matter, Almighty God is not involved in any deed or result thereof. God only looks/spectator of all the deeds of the soul and awards result of the deeds. Param tatva is Almighty God. Soul can not be God.

    Man, budhi, chitta and ahankar are four which are called antahkaran. Whatever we have done in the past or we are doing in the present the effect of each karmas is inserted on chitta. So when soul leave the body (death)the all deeds effects goes with soul through antahkaran because suksham body of the soul remains with soul while leaving the body. So effect of karmas are not destroyed at that time untill one becomes able for salvation. So the clean slate is not permitted at this juncture. So is with the memory.

    Satish Sharma: 1. Swamiji, Namashkar. Your answer to my question has disturbed me more than satisfying my quest. I will ask some more questions part wise from your reply to my earlier qestion. -Swamiji , you said 'Atma' is not part of God. This has shaken most of my convictions that was based on the assumptions on what Lord Krishna said in Bhagwat Gita (Please forgive me in case I mis-quote because of my nonserious type reading of 'Geeta' without going in any details) that 'I am you and you are in me'. Which in my present day belief is that 'Atma' is miniscule part of Divine and our quest should be to merge this 'Atma' with 'Paramatma'. Please elaborate as to why you have quoted it to be not a part of God.
    Swami Ramswarup: God can not be parted i.e., God is one Supreme power and HE can not be made in pieces. Suppose you have made burfi in a pot then you can cut a piece of burfi from the whole quantity but no piece can be seprated from one God which can be treated as a soul. Secondly the quality of the piece of burfi will ever be same as is of the whole quantity of burfi kept in the pot. But this is not applicable in the case of Almighty God. Though some qualities will be found same but not hundred percent. We utter Sachidanand, a name of God. Here are three words sat, chetan and anand. Which are applicable fully for God i.e., God is sat, sat means God was in the past, is in present and will remain in future for ever (eternal) so is the case of soul. Chetan means alive so is the case of soul. Anand means merriment so God is ocean of merriment but soul feels sorrows, sickness, problems, etc., soul does deeds and God gives results thereof to the soul in the
    shape of sin and pious but God never bears the result of deeds. HE is only spectator of our deeds but He is not involved in deeds. Soul takes birth means takes human or animal's body etc., but God never takes birth.

    God is everywhere but soul is not everywhere. By taking birth soul has parents but God has no any parents. That is why in Vedas God is called swayam bhuhu. In Rigved Mantra 1/164/20 it is clearly stated that in human body there live two alive powers in it one is God and second is soul. In shatpath Brahmin Granth Yask Muni says that soul is like a body in which God lives. Therefore God is seprate and soul is seprate. God commands on souls and universe. You have quoted Bhagwat Geeta shalok but you have not quoted its number. To enable me to give you explanation in brief please quote its number. However when Yogeshwar Krishna says two words you and I then it clarifies sepration. When electric is in wire it means current is seprate and steel wire is seprate by qualites.

    Thirst remains in human being and it is quenched by other matter i.e., water. So soul (atma) is thirsty and the other matter is God by realising which the soul's thirst is over. Your questions are interested and I appreciate you. Please quote Bhagwat Geeta shalok and send e-mail for further guidance.
    2. Swamiji, the second part of your reply that Body does not feel pleasure, agony, pain is also complex answer. When
    I, ('Mr.A'of my previous question) am feeling some head-ache/fever/pain from some cut on my body or enjoying taste of some sweet fruit or ecstasy of sexual pleasure - if that is being felt by my 'Atma' and not my body then why in all
    our Scriptures it issaid that you leave all your bodily pleasures and turn your Atma towards 'Paramatma'. Moreover, Lord Krishna says in Geeta that "Atma ko Aag Jala Nahin sakati....Is ko koi shoke santap nahin hota etc.etc." Swamiji
    , right now I am unable to accept this fact that my body is not feeling the pain and pleasures but Atma is feeling this. When I am typing this question, my fingers are feeling the pressure on its tips on striking the keyboard through
    the nervous system/brain. How do you mention and allot this feeling to 'Atma'?
    Swami Ramswarup: Body is non alive and soul is alive. Soul experiences headche etc., through body.When soul
    comes out from the body and death is declared then body is before us but why body is not looking, hearing, walking, smelling, touching, laughing or eating etc., and what was the power in the body which was feeling the same. In Bhagwat Geeta too Shri Krishana says O Arjuna the soul (atma) can not be killed by weapons etc., (shalok 2/23) there are five senses that is eye, ear, nose, tongue and skin which gives message to mind (through mana) and mind further gives to soul to realise. That is why these are called indriya sukh that is bodily sukh which take us into sin etc. When soul manages to control on five senses and five perceptions and mana/mind. By means of yoga practice then soul realises himself as said in yog shashtra sutra 1/2 and 1/3. Atma ko aag nahin jala sakti (shalok 2/23) etc., is correct but when this atma comes in a body then atma has to bear the result of his previous deeds in the shape of good and bad- pleasures and sorrows. The original shape of atma is pure and is out of dirt but atma has forgotten his original shape/qualities due to attachment of rajo, tamo and sato gunas of Prakriti. When you take birth the soul by virtue of its attachment he is attached either with the God or with Prakriti's guna according to the situation. Mostly soul is attached with prakriti and bears the consequences of feeling headache, problem, sorrows, death and birth etc., by studies of Vedas and pratice of ashtang yoga soul (atma) controls on senses and feels his origianl shape and then realises God. Your fingers are non alive matter then how your finger can feel anything and when soul goes out from body how fingers are able to type.
    3. Swamiji, now the third point 'attachment of soul with Prakriti i.e. Rajogun, Tamogun 'I am unable to understand as to what
    contest you have explained? Please describe in some detail.
    Swami Ramswarup: Prakriti is non alive matter just like soil. Potter makes pot from soil. Soil can not convert himself in pot without potter. Similarly God makes universe like earth sun, moon and bodies etc., from prakriti. Prakriti has three qualities (gunas) that is rajo (sexual qualities etc.,), tamo (laziness quality etc,) and sato (proudness
    quality etc.,) from these three gunas the whole universe including our bodies are made. This subject is vast. I have written a book about this. Please send your postal address to enable me to send the said book for your study (free of cost).

    4. Swamiji, now the fourth part of your answer, in which answer to my abovesaid 2nd part also lies, says that 'Atma feels
    through the media of body' but my notions that I have mentioned above may please first be cleared. Please convince me that soul suffers or enjoys the worldly sorrows or pleasures through the media of body negating my views formed through
    Geetaor other such books & lectures.
    Swami Ramswarup: Soul feels cold through body. But body does not feel. When soul goes out from body
    then dead body is provided with large bundle of ice then why the body does not feel cold.
    5. My last question is on the part of your answer that mentions-"souls being alive & bodies being nonalive". Swamiji what do you mean by this I am not able to understand. My conviction or opinion is that the thing that niether takes birth nor dies can not be termed as alive. A thing that is an iota part of that Almighty God, I mean 'Atma' should not be termed as
    alive because alive or dead is that thing which has taken birth whereas 'Atma' is amar or ajanma. This conviction is also based on my reading of Geeta where Lord Krishna talks to Arjuna on his "Karma"during the start of Mahabharat war. Although there are lot of questions that are boiling in me but at least please reply first to my abovesaid doubts so that I can feel some satisfaction from your words . Please take as much space as you like to give answer or prescribe me some book from where I can get more clarity to my queries. I shall wait eagerly for your guidance.(08/01/2003)
    Swami Ramswarup: Prakriti is non alive. Non alive means dead like stone and can not do any deed at his own
    accord. Alive means chetan and can think and do at his own accord. Prakriti is non alive. Our body is made from prakriti. Therefore our body is non alive. If table is made of wooden then table has quality of wood of burning. If hammer is
    made of iron then hammer has the quality of iron of melting and not burning so our body is made of prakriti which is non alive so our body has the same quality of the prakriti of non alive i.e., dead like stone. The soul never takes birth
    being eternal and alive but due to past deeds to be faced soul take body. And body takes birth from parents. God can not be made in pieces. God is one, bodiless beyond calculation, beyond imagination so one God can not be broken into pieces and even it is not necessary.
    Satish Sharma: Swami ji, I read your answers with interest, which clear many doubts in my mind. One thing that you rely on is Vedas, but we ordinary people can neither study Vedas nor can fully understand them even if we go read them. However, when spiritual people quote Vedas, it comes to my mind that had they been written in Hindi or elaborated in Hindi, we could also get benefit of them. Please inform whether these are available? If yes then where ? (24/12/2002) My question/doubt is - You say that 'Atma' is a part of 'Parmatma'. It does not die. It can not be destroyed. No nothing can affect it in any form. It does not feel any grief, any happiness, any agony, any pain. It is only the body('sthool sharir') that is affected by the abovesaid things. You also say that when a person dies, he carries with him only the deeds that he has performed in this life good or bad and these deeds of his determine his next birth as well as happiness & sorrows that he will have to bear in his new birth. Now my actual question is that I, say 'Mr. A'does a lot of dishonest deeds and earn a lot of money and spends a lavish & comfortable life-wine, woman & all pleasures. The body of 'Mr. A ' enjoys all these pleasures and then it dies. Now it takes a rebirth in human form as 'Mr. B' . As per your sayings this Mr.B's body(sthool Sharir) will have to suffer for the dishonest deeds of Mr. A. Mr.A's body enjoyed the fruits of dishonesty & Mr. B's body is suffering the karmas of A. Soul('Atma') of both was/is the same but since it is not affected by anything so both in case of life of A as well as B the soul was unaffected. Now what is so wrong for the body of Mr. A to earn money out of dishonest means and satisfies itself ? The memory of Mr. B will never recall that he was Mr. A. That is one body enjoyed & the other body suffered but both these bodies didn't know each other nor will they ever know so why to do 'Satkarma' in this life and to put the present body in hardship for a future body whome I will never know or! remember. I hope I am able to convey my question
    properly . This dilemma haunts me and no I have not become dishonest but I feel that by the abovesaid logic what's the harm in it. Please guide.
    Swami Ramswarup: I have faith on Vedas because it is knowlegde direct from God originated in the heart of four Rishis at the time of creation. God is truth So knowledge came from the God in the shape of four vedas undoubtfully is as true as God. Actually we are born to listen the Vedas but after Mahabharat war we have forgotten. I would request you to please again see the web site regarding origin of Vedas and yoga and send e-mail sure. Yes Vedas are avilable in Hindi that is with Hindi description.

    Actually atma is not a part of God because God can not be deshaped and can not be made in parts like stone etc. So our soul is separate and our body is separate due to qualities yet some qualities are same like aliveness and immortal. Body does not feel pleasure, sorrows ,agony, pain etc., as you said because body is non alive, it is soul who bears being not knowing his own quality of evergreen due to covered with illusion and illusion is due to attachment of soul with prakriti that is rajo guna, tamo guna and sato guna i.e., worldly articles and affairs. Whereas real status of soul is of always merriment and not to become worried,sick etc. But soul has forgotten its real staus due to the attachment as stated. So soul feel agony, pain etc. as stated above through the media of body whereas it is not soul's subject. Yes when person gets death (bodily only and not death of soul) he carries his good or bad deeds with him. But we can burn all the deeds by meditation
    etc., to get final liberation for which only we have taken human body. Mr. A is enjoying the result of his past deeds and present efforts too towards materialisrtic task only which are destroyed one day and are of no use if Mr. A is not getting spiritual preach and obeying thereof for which he was blessed with human body. Therefore his present deeds will be carried forward in his next life to give birth either in poorest family to bear sorrows etc., or in animal etc., according to karmas by God. Please amend here that the body of Mr. A is not enjoying but Mr. A himself( soul) is enjoying materialistic, temporary and destroyable facilites. So this is Mr. A who will suffer in his next birth. Soul being same but bodies being different and feeling will be of souls being alive and not of bodies being non alive and it will be according to karmas.
    Soul is always effected either in the body of A or B and bodies are not effected. Please contact again after studying full web site. Your questions are interested and beneficial for all concerned.

    Prafulla Chikerur: I am writing a script for a video programme of conserving nature, and have stated in it that the five elements are nothing but God. This has been refered to the human's enless search for God, which he does'nt know exixts or not. Instead take care of the exixting God, that is Nature. To give it a background, I want a group to sing the rruchas in Ved relating to the five elements. This is one of my efforts to worship God. Please let me know how will I get those rruchas.
    Swami Ramswarup: The meaning of nothing is that whatever we say it has got no existence but four Vedas, Geeta and Science accept the existence of five elements which are visible and are base for keeping us alive. We can not live without air, water, sun, moon, earth, space etc., too. While giving comments on Patanjali Yoga darshan, Vyas Muni says that if somebody says about a man carrying a bow made of horns of hare then it has got no truth because hare has no horns. So saying that there is nothing except God is not true because every element is being seen and it is utilised too whereas bow made of horn is untrue because nobody can see and utilise the horn of hare as it has got no existence. If we accept that there is nothing except God then we will have to accept that all visible five elements and things made thereof like trees, our body, stone etc., are also God. Secondly we will not be in a position to say that God is everywhere because everywhere words in this case will have no existence.If we will say that everything is a misunderstanding like a misunderstanding of a snake in a rope, then your statement becomes contradictory because when there is nothing except God then he who is seeing the rope and having misunderstanding of a snake, he is himself a God but God can not be misled. If somebody says that for some time illusion captures the God and God gets misunderstanding then it is all against four Vedas, six shashtras, Geeta and Ramayan. In this connection Yajurveda says about God, "ADITYA VARNAH TAMSAH PRASTAT" i.e., God is refulgent like the sun and free from ignorance/illusion. Without knowing this God nobody can overcome the death. For salvation there is no other way except knowing the said God (Yajurveda Mantra 31/18). Search of God is not endless. Because our previous and new Rishi Munis have realised God through Veda knowledge and ashtang yoga. Nature is actually prakriti from which the whole universe is made by God and in YajurVeda mantra 40/9 it is mentioned that he who is only searching nature(prakriti), he goes in darkness/illusion.Further mantra 11 says he who knows prakriti and God both simultaneously, he is wise. In Geeta chapter two shalok 45 Lord Krishna says to overcome the three qualities of prakriti i.e., Raj, Tam and Satv. As regard "Richa"i.e., Veda mantra asked by you about five elements, please send your postal address as it a lengthy and can not be typed here.
    Ram Suri: Dear Swamiji. Namaskar. I am grateful for your reply. Swamiji! my earlier question was that if I am able to make karma zero, then do I born again or not. Scriptures apparently say that there is no birth for such souls. In that case, where will be my soul? Will it be near divine or will it become divine by dissolving in divine? Where are all those liberated souls currently present? I will be thankful for your answer.
    Swami Ramswarup: If the karmas become zero by doing pious deeds, worship, yoga practice etc., then there becomes no next birth because birth means soul is provided with organs like eyes etc., and legs etc., and body to face the result of past births’ deeds etc. When karmas become zero, then no need of next body and soul remains always in merriment with minute/smallest organs which are called invisible sukshm sharir in Hindi and this sharir remains in space. And such souls get salvation i.e., final liberation.
    Ram Suri: Swamiji. Namaskar. I am very thankful for your kind answer. But I have some doubts from your reply. You have said that according to advaita, there is only one thing present. If we ask who this one thing is, then the answer is divine (not God). Divine is one, without second. The various names, like sun, moon, wind, etc you have mentioned, are not divine. They are prakriti. Prakriti is not divine, and therefore, it works under divine's command. Because, the above terms are described in Vedas, it does not mean that they are also divine. If you agree that the above names, like wind, sun, moon etc are nothing but prakriti, then apart from prakriti who else is present? It is divine. Therefore, divine is alone, one without a second. Your own explanation supports advaita, but you say that advaita is wrong. Vedas may also have said that divine, souls and Prakriti are present. Souls, bonded in karma, are not divine. Similarly, prakriti is also not divine, because, it chages every time, while divine never changes. When dealing in spirituality, we have to consider only divine and souls, but not physical body (prakriti) because, once, it is dead, it goes into prakriti. But spiritutality is concerned with souls and divine. According to advaita philosophy, the souls that are out of bondage of karma is nothing but divine. Upanishads also support this claim, 'Tat tvam asi', 'Aham brahma asmi' etc. Here we need to understand that eventhough, all souls are divine, but because, they are entangled in samsar, they are not entitled to be called divine. Once, the soul is able to annihilate the karma to zero by sadhana, etc activities, all layers of ignorance and bondage are broken. This soul is liberated from birth and death loop for ever, and hence eligible to attain or merge in divine. The rope and snake example you quoted can not be equated in spirituality. Why? Because, This intrepetation of example ends at buddi, starting from world, karma indria, gyan indria, mind, and buddi. Beyond buddi is the paRamatma. If we aim for divine, we need to control upto buddi. Therefore, the above example, does not even talk about divine, and hence no spirituality in it. Spirituality comes beyond buddi onwards. Once, the mind is controlled thoroughly by practicing various methods, then the same mind will help for divine realization (an uncontrolled mind is an enemy, while controlled mind is a friend, - as said in Gita). Can you please make your position clear by giving a better explanation? Upanishads are a part of Vedas, and when they declare that a pure soul is nothing but divine, it is correct. Can you please give a better explanation. If you like, we can continue this debate. I have no bad feelings or opinion about you or anyone else. Please forgive me if you are hurt by my explanation.
    Swami Ramswarup: I do not say but the advaitvad says the remaining matter is God and not Divine because in advaitvad they say EKO BRAHAM DWITIYO NA ASTI. Its meaning, they say, --- there is only one God and nothing else so the soul, body, sun , etc., all are God. But by misunderstanding like a snake in the rope these matters are being looked by an ignorant as sun, body etc. This does not suits from Vedas. I did not say that sun, moon, bodies etc., are prakriti but I told that these are made of prakriti. At the time of mahapralay these sun, moon ,etc., i.e., whole creation is merged in prakriti i.e., take the shape of prakriti and Prakriti is eternal like God and souls. Mud is one matter but pots made from mud take another shape. So sun, moon etc., are made from prakriti but not these are not prakriti. Hence the tretvad. So I do not ,even did not agree that sun, moon etc., are prakriti as you stressed above in your present question. I could not understand that what do you mean by Divine. If you consider its meaning God or like God then the answer will be changed because sun, moon are made from Prakriti and prakriti is non alive matter like mud and the matters are destroyed one day and cannot be God because God is immortal. So from prakriti God creates universe. Souls take bodies.

    If there is only one God and there is no prakriti and no souls or souls and prakriti are God then how God is omnipresent and to whom God is commanding? If we say that for sometime God has been captured by illusion then again it is wrong due to the purest qualities of God mentioned in all Vedas and also said YajurVeda mantra 40/8 i.e., shukRam, akaya, shudham, apapvidham, samabhyahah, yatha tathyatah, arthan i.e., God is almighty and needs no assistance to create and command on prakriti and souls, God is bodiless, purest and there may be no any kind of illusion etc., in God or on God. God can not do any sin and injustice actually God does not face any result of any deeds (karmas) as also said in yoga shashtra suta 1/24 but soul bears, so the difference between God and soul, and at last it is said in this
    mantra that God in real position has given the knowledge of every matters, prakriti, souls of himself by giving the knowledge through Vedas. My explanation do not support advaitvad but supports tretvad i.e., God, prakriti and souls according to Vedas. Samkhya shashtra of Kapil Muni and yoga shashtra of Patanjali Rishi clears that Vedas are eternal and are only the
    proof on the world to know the truth.so according to all the ancient holy books we have to take proof of Vedas to know reality or the proof of the past Rishis like Vyas etc., who knew Vedas and yoga philosophy (please see yoga shashtra sutra 1/7--- prataksh-anumaan-agamah pRamanani for proof). So the proof of Vedas cannot be ignored being eternal and direct knowledge from God originated automatically in the heart of four Rishis at time of creation. Please clear the meaning of divine as we consider its meaning in Hindi as Divya, pavitr etc.,so in original soul is divya and pavitr (divine) God is also Divya and pavitr. But soul is bounded with karmas and illusion whereas God not. Soul takes body whereas God not. Soul is present at one place only with his body but God is everywhere etc., etc., etc., the differences between God and soul. Prakriti is also eternal but the sun, moon etc., made from prakriti are not eternal. How you and I or anybody else (soul ) reads, laughs, studies and do deeds etc? Answer is from mind and body and organs and these organs are made of prakriti. You are giving question and answer through your mind. So how we will not consider physical body from which we are giving answer etc.?

    Alone soul can do nothing. When soul goes out from body then neither soul nor body is able to do anything. So soul is dependent on body to react whereas God is independent. Without mind and body nothing can be considered what to talk of spirituality. We are thankless (in Urdu ehsanpharmosh) that we (souls) are using mind, eyes, nose, body, sun, moon, gold, silver, earth, fruits, water, air etc., etc., to live upon all made of prakriti and we are denying on the other hand. It means we take birth from our most respected learned mother and father and we are saying that their bodies are nothing. We do marriage, take pleasure, get beautiful bodies of children and become happy and again we say that these bodies are nothing and cannot be considered in spirituality. We study and take lecture from our teachers (souls) from their mouth and we are saying that there is no existence of mouth is not considered in spirituality. So the tretvad of Vedas is true but everybody is free to accept any VAD. Not I but Vedas don't support advaitvad.

    You have said that ,"Vedas may also have said --- " so it is clear that you have not gone through the Vedas. AtharvVeda says "PASHYA DEVSYA KAVYAM NA MAMMAR NA JIRYATI" it means we study the immortal knowledge of Vedmantras. Gurunanak Dev Sahib says,"VED ONKAAR NIRMAY i.e., Vedas are originated by Almighty God Himself. Again Guru Maharaj says,"VED KATEV KAHO MAT JHOOTHE,JHOOTHA SO JO NA VICHARE. It means Vedas are true so I would request you to please go through all the Vedas, the immortal knowledge of God. What happens that we listen the smallest part of Veda, Shashtra, Mahabharta, Upnishads etc., from the present saints which mostly suits them. In AtharvaVeda kand 12 sukta 5 , it is said that the thorough knowledge must be attained and not in cut piece or stolen, otherwise God will give punishment so we must respect our Vedas. I have written a lot about Vedas and yoga on this web site and it is again my humble request to you to please go through the whole web site and send me e-mail again. In holy bhandaras, we take food and how can we ignore that food is nothing?

    In this connection, Kapil Muni also says in his Samkhya shahstra that , "NA KALPANAVIRODHAH PRAMAANDRISHTASYA"sutra 2/25 which means that when the truth has been defined in Vedas then it cannot be changed based on mere imagination like NA ASAT AH KHAYANAM NRISHRINGVAT SUTRA 5/52 means like horn on man 's head i.e., there is no horn on man's head, it has proof of AtharvaVeda yet somebody says based on his own imagination that he has seen a man with horn on his head, so it is not acceptable being unauthentic. Soul as you said is bounded in karmas so not divine but soul is free from illusions and karmas in its original shape but being ignorant due to attachment with raj, tam, and sato guna of prakriti soul has forgotten his original shape and requires Vedas knowledge/spiritual knowledge through preaches to wash illusion like kaam, krodh, mad, lobh, ahankaar etc. Prakriti in original is never changed but the creation is made from prakriti , creation is not called prakriti as mud is not called pot (made of mud). Soul is called soul according to his qualities and divine is divine according to its qualities. And please define the meaning of Divine you consider.

    In Brihadarnakyo Upnishad shalok 1/4/10,AHAM BRAHAM ASMI has been stated . Suppose somebody is telling that class is making noise but class cannot make noise, only students are making noise. So when a Yogi after studying Vedas and doing ashtang yoga practice attains Samadhi i.e., salvation, the soul from his body starts saying Aham (I am)Braham Asmi (absorbed in God) and this absorption is like salt in water because at every state the qualities of salt are separate from water. If soul is considered God then why cannot soul create universe? This stage comes in Samadhi only. For example one says that he (my friend) and I are one but in reality they are separate. Similarly when Yogi attains Samadhi/Salvation, he says AHAM BRAHAM ASMI but soul and God are always separate. So when somebody will say that God Himself is soul or sun, moon etc., and God Himself is doing this play, then it is wrong.

    Now come to Tatwm Asi, In Chandoyogopnishad 6/2 it is said in the shaloka that (Rishi says to his son Shwetketu) God is to be known who is the smallest from soul and world and is Atma of world and souls. The said true God is Himself His Atma (i.e., God is Swayambhuh nobody has created God but God has created world from Prakriti ) then told TADATMA EKAH TAT ANTARYAMI TWAM ASI i.e., my son Shwetketu that God
    is within you, so the meaning of Tatwam asi is as the God is Atma of all non alive creations (world )and too of alives (souls) , so O ,Shwetketu , you are the same that is God is also your Atma i.e., God is also within you like whole creation. So Upnishad does not support the claim.As you say that souls are entangled in Sansar they are not entitled to be Divine and once the soul is able to anihilate the karmas to zero by sadhna, all layers of ignorance and bondage are broken so he will have to go in deep that soul makes karmas zero by doing worship etc., and not God, hence the separation. A yogi goes beyond Buddhi only through
    meditation etc., and takes the help of Buddhi. Without Buddhi he will be mad and learning of Vedas, shashtras, etc., is also based on Buddhi and organs. Yes, beyond Buddhi is Parmatma(God) and with mind (Budddhi ) the soul works, but in Salvation also soul has
    mann, Buddhi, five perceptions, five organs and five pran and it is called suksham sharir as mentioned in four Vedas and other ancient holy Granths. Suppose in salvation soul has no suksham sharir then how will he enjoy the salvation, (Parmanand) so God is beyond mind
    calculation and imagination but to realise God soul takes the assistance of mind etc. As regards the example of rope and snake it is always mentioned in advaitvad which I quoted and made it wrong based on Vedic theory of tretvad. Controlled and uncontrolled mind is applicable only for soul and not God. I am happy from your hard study and explaning your views and will request you to please continue.

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